Open Association of Landscape Industries
Subcontractors wall collapsed
As you may pick up from the previous thread i live in cheltenham. I had been doing some planting work near my parental home in Surrey. The clients needed a landscaper to do the longer bits of work - fencing, driving machines etc. I suggested someone i had worked with before and they went ahead and worked with him.
The clients asked this contractor to build a dry stonewall to create a flatter area of lawn. The wall was built in June of last year.
This wall collapsed on Monday after the heavy April rain. The contractor is now saying that the rain was exceptional and the wall needed some drainage which he did not allow for at the time as he could not build the wall to account for the high volumes of rain that we had... He says he will fix it, which will take a week, but wants some money towards the cost of it as these are exceptional circumstances. The client has taken the opposite opinion.
What are your thoughts? Is it the contractors responsibility to fix the wall....and how should things proceed?
I attached a picture of the wall standing and on the floor.
I am obviously involved, being the introducer.
Things had been going so well...Any help greatfully received!!!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Thermo on
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liability comes down to who specified what. if the client asked for a retaining wall and he provided that then its down to him. If the client said exactly what he wanted and he built it then down to the client.
To say that the rainfall has been exceptional and he couldnt have allowed for it is utter tosh. We did a similar dry stone wall 4 years ago on a heavy clay area, that was so bad springs appeared with all the rainfall. We had to dig back further install a complete land drainage system behind the wall and on the land leading to it to take the water away, with teh walls backfilled with gravel behind. Its still standing
Any retaining wall needs 3 elements, drainage, structure and a face. He has simply provided a rockery face to the slope. As has been said before it needs it needs retaining either with gabions, or a decent rebar and concrete filled hollow block wall, and then it can be faced up with the stone to get the effect you want. If they want a proper job then it needs to be done properly and it isnt quick and it isnt cheap!
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Permalink Reply by Michael james Holland on
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Nice stone,but not the right way of laying it.
It does look like he has faced the earth bank with know thought as to holding it back.
I think the best way to build a retaining wall out of this type of stone is to start with a very wide base of say five foot and give the wall a good batter as you go up..The longer stones that he has placed long ways should be going back into the bank to give the wall weight and tie the wall together.
I would think that you would need twice as much stone to build the wall strong enough to hold the a mount of soil back.
Drainage would be needed to take surface water away from the top of the wall and also behind the wall.
As for who pays to put it right it must come down to the person who built.
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Permalink Reply by Linda Secker on
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yep, agree with all the above.
No way will a dry stone wall (and that isn't a wall, it's a single stone facing) hold back a bnk of soil like that.
Never mind drainage holes (plenty drainage as no mortar) the soil will MOVE. the guy is an idiot and is very lucky no-one was hurt or he could be sued for millions.
Any retaining wall over 60-70cm should be designed by a structural engineer.... but would be properly solid, wider at the base, battered (ie leaning back into the slope - that's the only bit he got right), with proper drainage pipes at the base, backfilled with gravel behind a geotextile membrane.
It is entirely his responsibility to re-build it unless 'someone' told him to do it like that :)
good luck!
Linda www.garden-design-lancashire.co.uk
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Permalink Reply by Justin Hemming on -
Here's a link to the Dry Stone Walling Association technical spec for retaining walls
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Permalink Reply by Guy Jones on -
Many thanks again - all this seems to have struck an accord.
No I personally had nothing to do with the concept or construction of the wall.
All of the ground you see was made up ground with the bottom course bedded on the existing ground level. That is, the ground was made up with dug top soil, mostly from a tennis court construction to provide a flat lawn.
I think - for i was not around, that the client approached the contractor, saying that they wanted a drystone wall to give us a flat lawn above, can you build it/offer us a price? The contractor said yes and took responsibility for the construction of the job, including methodology, material sourcing etc.
I am not very construction minded so had no input on the specifics, i have made this clear all along and not commented on this. My only input - I was asked by the client to suggest a finished line for the design which i sprayed or marked with a hose on the ground. I also asked the contractor, if it would be possible and if so, to leave some planting pockets for alpines to be planted into the wall at a later date. This was my only input. The clients dealt with and paid the contractor directly. So i guess i have no liability.
What i want to do is to fix this for the client.
DEVELOPMENTS OVER THE WEEKEND
The contractor has asked for money to make the remedial work - claiming that the weather was a 1 in 100 year event. The client has refused and the contractor has gone away to think about it.
Any thoughts on how best to proceed, or whether the client is acting correctly at the moment? Where do we go next?
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by David Cox on -
The client is acting correctly In my opinion - and as others have pointed out - it would be the contractors responsibility to put the job right in its entirety. 1 in 100 event, or not, it the wall was not built properly anyway so that is a mute point and of no relevance to the fact the wall failed.
It will also need to be built in a totally different way with additional materials to have any hope of lasting at all in future.
The contractors fault and responsibility - especially if they designed and planned the wall in the first place.
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Permalink Reply by James @ KentGardening on -
I agree with Paul, however it would be a good move on your part to advise the client to seek advice from a structure engineer on the correct specification for the wall and present that back to the contractor in question.
The minimum I would build myself on this would be 18x9" hollow concrete blocks, re-barred, backfilled and wall tied to a stone faced wall which could be raked out to give the look of a dry stone wall, with drainage system behind it all. Its all well and good saying this but you need an engineer to spec out the foundations etc for the contractor to follow. Even the gabions i mentioned earlier i would have a substantial concrete foundation to root them into the bank to prevent the pivotal movement.
Paul @ PPCH Services said:If I were you I would politely explain to the customer that you have no responsibility for the actions of the contractor, nor do you have construction knowledge or took any part in the walls construction, as sutch the matter is between them (the client) and the contractor to resolve.
I feel any attempt to act as an intermediary will most likely result in a lot of hassle and probably cause your reputation more damage than politely explaining your position taking no responsibility.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Stephen @ SJS on -
Bottom line is the contractor was quite happy to take the money for constructing wall, they should take responsibility hold their hands up & accept that this was wrong from the start ! This is the only way that this can go forward, as others have pointed out get the client to get a structural engineer to survey & with the findings ask the contractor to rectify it is their reputation that is at stake not yours as you had no part in the decision process , only thing that may cause damage is guilty by association & would hope your relationship with the client would not be tarred by this!
Guy Jones said:DEVELOPMENTS OVER THE WEEKEND
The contractor has asked for money to make the remedial work - claiming that the weather was a 1 in 100 year event. The client has refused and the contractor has gone away to think about it.
Any thoughts on how best to proceed, or whether the client is acting correctly at the moment? Where do we go next?
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Permalink Reply by Guy Jones on
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Great , I had already made the suggestion re a structural engineer/recognised stone wall expert on the first day. The client is moving forward with this.
Does anyone know of one in the West Surrey area?
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Jen@A&J Owenwindows&gardens on -
I agree with Paul, the more you involve yourself in the matter the more you risk being blamed by default especially as the contractor appears to be trying to wriggle out of taking ownership. Incidentally, I know absolutely nothing about construction but I've never seen dry stone walling being used in a situation like this - even the before picture looks like it's all about to tumble down.
The client is 100% right in my opinion. The contractor is lucky that no one was hurt. If I was him I'd take the proper advice, get it done properly and learn from it. In my opinion don't be the middle man though, we had our fingers burned once before in a not dissimilar situation - so can speak from experience.
Paul @ PPCH Services said:If I were you I would politely explain to the customer that you have no responsibility for the actions of the contractor, nor do you have construction knowledge or took any part in the walls construction, as sutch the matter is between them (the client) and the contractor to resolve.
I feel any attempt to act as an intermediary will most likely result in a lot of hassle and probably cause your reputation more damage than politely explaining your position taking no responsibility.
Guy Jones said:Many thanks again - all this seems to have struck an accord.
No I personally had nothing to do with the concept or construction of the wall.
All of the ground you see was made up ground with the bottom course bedded on the existing ground level. That is, the ground was made up with dug top soil, mostly from a tennis court construction to provide a flat lawn.
I think - for i was not around, that the client approached the contractor, saying that they wanted a drystone wall to give us a flat lawn above, can you build it/offer us a price? The contractor said yes and took responsibility for the construction of the job, including methodology, material sourcing etc.
I am not very construction minded so had no input on the specifics, i have made this clear all along and not commented on this. My only input - I was asked by the client to suggest a finished line for the design which i sprayed or marked with a hose on the ground. I also asked the contractor, if it would be possible and if so, to leave some planting pockets for alpines to be planted into the wall at a later date. This was my only input. The clients dealt with and paid the contractor directly. So i guess i have no liability.
What i want to do is to fix this for the client.
DEVELOPMENTS OVER THE WEEKEND
The contractor has asked for money to make the remedial work - claiming that the weather was a 1 in 100 year event. The client has refused and the contractor has gone away to think about it.
Any thoughts on how best to proceed, or whether the client is acting correctly at the moment? Where do we go next?
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Premium SupplierPermalink Reply by Ofer El-hashahar on -
When looking at terraces in the far east, growing rice on the mountains - they mastered it.
yet never this height....
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Matt - Glebe Landscape on -
Wow! This job is a big mess, not sure where to start with this.
Firstly the construction of a dry stone wall is not something you just 'have a go at' especially if it is going to be retaining soil. There are no regulations specifically covering dry stone walling, only recommendations from the DSWA. The first thing that jumps out at me from the pictures is that although the incline does look like 1 in 6 which is the key recommendation for structural integrity, it is only on one face which means the wall has no structural integrity at all and I am amazed that it lasted as long as it did. The wall should, if viewed from the end look like a triangle, which is where it get's it's strength from so for example a wall that is 1300mm tall should be 710mm wide at the bottom and 360mm wide at the top. You can build a dry stone wall more or less any height but you must ensure that the base width is correct, without this.... well you know what happens.
The blame for this mess up lies firmly at the door of the contractor, and from the looks of the job, this is not something that this person has received training on. The stone looks very much like facing stone to me, quite uniform in thickness and always used, as the name suggests, to face a stronger wall just for aesthetics. The contractor has done nothing more than build a leaning wall, which without the aid of the soil bank would have fallen down - he's basically faced a soil bank with stone! A true dry stone wall should be able to stand entirely on it's own, and if built correctly will continue to do so for many many years.
The contractor needs to man up to this, admit that he does not have the knowledge to build this wall correctly and either refund the client, or offer to pay a qualified contractor to build the wall properly. I would not want them going anywhere near that wall again if it were mine.
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