Open Association of Landscape Industries
Subcontractors wall collapsed
As you may pick up from the previous thread i live in cheltenham. I had been doing some planting work near my parental home in Surrey. The clients needed a landscaper to do the longer bits of work - fencing, driving machines etc. I suggested someone i had worked with before and they went ahead and worked with him.
The clients asked this contractor to build a dry stonewall to create a flatter area of lawn. The wall was built in June of last year.
This wall collapsed on Monday after the heavy April rain. The contractor is now saying that the rain was exceptional and the wall needed some drainage which he did not allow for at the time as he could not build the wall to account for the high volumes of rain that we had... He says he will fix it, which will take a week, but wants some money towards the cost of it as these are exceptional circumstances. The client has taken the opposite opinion.
What are your thoughts? Is it the contractors responsibility to fix the wall....and how should things proceed?
I attached a picture of the wall standing and on the floor.
I am obviously involved, being the introducer.
Things had been going so well...Any help greatfully received!!!
Replies to This Discussion
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Austin Powell-Allen on -
Interesting as what do you think an insurance company would say, would they say act of god in which case its null and void. Does looks like there is a lack of support at the bottom as water and gravity has just taken its way and it all falls down the slope. Its the same if you put gravel on a sloping drive and you get rain it washes it down the road. because you failed to put in any kind of barrier to holed the gravel back. Reminds me when i saw a neighbour of a client of mine putting down gravel in his garden that was on the bank of a river that frequently floods where is all that gravel going to go.
I had a client today mention his rear gate was difficult to open when I pointed out to him the crack in his garden wall caused by his neighbours large fir tree roots. he understood the problem. Always worth remembering to find the cause before fixing the first problem.
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Permalink Reply by ChaseLandscaping on -
I would have built a double skin block wall with drainage piping and channels and then the dry wall as the aesthetic outer fascia.
It shouldn't fall down whatever the weather and he should do the work for free, properly this time.
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Permalink Reply by Colin Hunt on -
The problem there is that you are then looking at real money. I cant see the contractor taking it on unless the customer foots the bill, in which case I think they would find another contractor. I'm wondering what happens round the corner.
ChaseLandscaping said:I would have built a double skin block wall with drainage piping and channels and then the dry wall as the aesthetic outer fascia.
It shouldn't fall down whatever the weather and he should do the work for free, properly this time.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Austin Powell-Allen on -
Yes really should have had better foundations and a secondary retaining wall have seem simular at other peoples garden where they have a rasied garden and the wall has started to bulge not cheap to fix but just shows what happens if they cut corners and try to do a job cheaply.
There was a case recently Gorleston in Norfolk where a garden wall collapsed after heavy rain http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-17691264
So its not just landscapers at fault.
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Permalink Reply by A D Landscapes on -
This is shocking, I am lost for words.
I really think if you are a landscaper the first thing you should learn about is groundworks, get this right your job is easy.
One thing that does wind me up, is that people think stone walling is easy, it is a craft and needs to be taught to you by another stone mason, he will tell you with in one hour if your ever going be able to work with stone.
From a business point of view, I would have nothing to do with the said stone waller. If he has any pride in his work he would be fixing the problem for free, right now.
Daniel Oxenham
A D Landscapes
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on -
It's very difficult to make a judgement based on the photos alone.
I guess what we don't know is what conversations took place between the client and the contractor and what budget was allowed for the project.
Whilst most clients rely on contractors to advise them on the best method or construction it is not uncommon for a client to waive additional processes in a bid to keep down their cost (that's not a defence or a judgement either the client nor the contractor but I'me sure we all know this happens?)
On the face of it (and we wouldn't be having this conversation if the wall remained intact) the wall construction looks lightweight. A single skin of what looks like 9" (225mm) dry walling laid on the batter.
I've seen this method many times before. If the ground behind was stable then the weight of the stone resting against the soil counteracts any outward force/pressure.
With the benefit of hindsight, a re-enforced internal skin concrete block retaining wall with drainage holes laid and tied into on a suitable footing should have been constructed. Especially at the height the wall was required.
It does look, however, as though the soil is infill/backfill and loosely consolidated. This will absorb water like a sponge which means pressures are increased.
For the future:
The contractor should:
- Get a structural report if any wall is to retain at a height greater than 1000mm
- Submit a specification in writing based on the structural support (even if the client doesn't supply one with their brief)
- Submit terms and conditions tied specifically to the detail of the specification
- Carry out a risk assessment and observational report based on site conditions - loose infill is one example of how the future stability of the area may be affected in the future
- List additional supporting information that is relevant to the project
- Advise accordingly or walk away if the client's budget is insufficient for the scale and complexity of the project - the client has a responsibility too
The Client should:
- Request from the contractor all of the information listed above
- Have sufficient budget to tackle their project in a safe and sensible manner
- Listen to the contractor - if a client feels uncomfortable with the advice they are receiving then be prepared to walk away
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Ian @ Red Barrow East Sussex on -
Phil Voice said:
It's very difficult to make a judgement based on the photos alone.
Sorry Phil, but it's not just the photos. The contractor, by his own admission ignored drainage; that alone is reckless in the extreme, considering the size and construct of the wall.
There has to be safer ways to compromise should lack of budget have been an issue.
Emotive I know, but thankfully there were no children playing beneath when the wall collapsed.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on -
I do agree Ian...I wasn't trying to excuse anyone, just trying to add a little caution to the debate.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Ian @ Red Barrow East Sussex on -
Phil Voice said:
just trying to add a little caution to the debate.
Thanks, Phil. Understand your treading carefully.
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Permalink Reply by gary green on -
Thanks for this, after a hard day fencing in the rain this gave me a good giggle.
axeljk said:If he builds the same wall again what's to stop it falling ?I don't know anything about dry stone walling, but thats a retaining wall at the end of the day , I couldn't see it holding back a bag of baloons never mind soil on a slope.
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Permalink Reply by A D Landscapes on
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Some things to remember when dry stone walling
One on two, two on one
Hearting (he really needs to look this up)
Through stones
Copes
The bottom of the wall needs to be thicker than the top
It is all held together by the weight of the stone and they are matched and fitted In such a way, over time they settle and become stronger.
If you get it right it is stronger than any mortared wall because it will not crack and need re pointing.
Trying to explain Dry stone walling via the internet is pointless
A engineer would have been a waste of money
Just my opinion
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Permalink Reply by Colin Hunt on
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Sometimes it's not worth the effort commenting on a retaining wall that is doomed to fail from moment the final stone is laid.
A D Landscapes said:Some things to remember when dry stone walling
One on two, two on one
Hearting (he really needs to look this up)
Through stones
Copes
The bottom of the wall needs to be thicker than the top
It is all held together by the weight of the stone and they are matched and fitted In such a way, over time they settle and become stronger.
If you get it right it is stronger than any mortared wall because it will not crack and need re pointing.
Trying to explain Dry stone walling via the internet is pointless
A engineer would have been a waste of money
Just my opinion
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