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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Grayfox on September 10, 2011 at 14:31

By the look of the properties as they stand now I would have to say your both right! I'm going to give this tender a miss this time as I feel its just out of my reach (size wise) but it has been a great exercise in costing - Thank you all 

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Gary RK on September 10, 2011 at 15:30

Jonathan, if you can take it forward to submission and use it as learning/training exercise which will give the opportunity to follow it and ask legit questions of them afterwards
Some will share important titbits of information and I have been given copies on winning submission appropiatelty stripped of anything too sensitive.

That way you get to see and understand how to package and present.

One last comment:

ALWAYS be prepared to present your tender in person as a sales job IF any opportunity arises.

So many just punt a package and hope....

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Grayfox on September 10, 2011 at 15:57

Thanks Gary, makes sense

Gary RK said:

Jonathan, if you can take it forward to submission and use it as learning/training exercise which will give the opportunity to follow it and ask legit questions of them afterwards
Some will share important titbits of information and I have been given copies on winning submission appropiatelty stripped of anything too sensitive.

That way you get to see and understand how to package and present.

One last comment:

ALWAYS be prepared to present your tender in person as a sales job IF any opportunity arises.

So many just punt a package and hope....

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Permalink Reply by Ian Hartmann on September 10, 2011 at 16:44

I think when you quote it is important to quote what you will actually provide and the specifics of what you will do: ie. cut, edge, deal with bare patches weeds etc and then quote a total price per metre. The council wont necessarily plummet for the cheapest if they can see there are additional services which could save them money and tendering costs in the future; they might be prepared to shuffle money around their budgets to increase the grass cutting budget using money from another maintenance budget. Its worth a try. I have worked in contracts and procurement before and it wasn't always just about the money but what else are you going to give them, sell all of your services, if you can, not just the cut.

Jonathan Grayfox said:

When you think a full size tennis court is 855m2, cutting at 6.6ppm2 works out at £56 - thats got to be about right Andy

Andy Thorne said:

 A residents association I do the lawn care for ends up costing 6.6ppm2 to mow, never thought to work it out like this before...

That's cut and collected with G23, edged all round (there are 4 seperate lawns).  Job looks spot on, not rushed (much ;) ) No bits missed out.

 

With a 4' mower at a decent speed you've got to be doing 20+m2 per minute...

 

Dan Frazer Gardening said:

I think Ben's lower figures must relate to huge areas cut with large machines mulching and done very rough/quickly. No other way to make them make sense otherwise. 60 properties is a decent contract - do they all pay you individually? Best of luck.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Gary RK on September 10, 2011 at 16:56

Ian, agree with your sentiments - its good practice to sell your value adds over & above the remainder, but experience shows that LAs etc do go for the cheapest quote. The introduction of competitive tendering in 90's saw LA's have to choose the best 'value for money'

 

To them, that nearly always means the cheapest (and not the best).

 

You then have 1, 2 or 3 year cycle, where that Contractor has trouble performing (due to cutting their prices to the bone) and the job is either given out for re-tender at break clause time, or they look to change to the next Contractor who offers the 'best value for money' bid at the natural end of contract.

 

A few do look further than this and really investigate what is being provided, but I have a stack of tender invitation in my office where there is NO deviation from THEIR specification - ie they wont listen, they are always right.

 

It's these LAs etc that always end up with the poorly performing Contractor who just can't deliver. Most won't allow any fuel surcharges as well, so a contract from 2 years that you may have won on cutting down to the bone is now financially non- viable with the increase in fuel & duty that a contractor has to absorb.

 

Look at the large contractor's (name 5 ...!) who take the % of LA work - you would think their overheads etc would make them prohibitly expensive, but economies of scale and paying min wage means they win, have a high tournover of staff (often unqualified) and often perform poorly in the eyes of the end client (ie tenants etc).

 

Some HAO's are more receptive to 'quality' and balancing costs against this. If you find one, work hard to win them and keep them.

 

They are like gold-dust :-)

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Roy Parker on September 10, 2011 at 17:14

so for a 850 sq metre garden you charge £56.00 ????

Jonathan Grayfox said:

When you think a full size tennis court is 855m2, cutting at 6.6ppm2 works out at £56 - thats got to be about right Andy

Andy Thorne said:

 A residents association I do the lawn care for ends up costing 6.6ppm2 to mow, never thought to work it out like this before...

That's cut and collected with G23, edged all round (there are 4 seperate lawns).  Job looks spot on, not rushed (much ;) ) No bits missed out.

 

With a 4' mower at a decent speed you've got to be doing 20+m2 per minute...

 

Dan Frazer Gardening said:

I think Ben's lower figures must relate to huge areas cut with large machines mulching and done very rough/quickly. No other way to make them make sense otherwise. 60 properties is a decent contract - do they all pay you individually? Best of luck.

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Grayfox on September 10, 2011 at 18:05

From the information that I have looked at prices vary from 6ppm2 to 30ppm2 .Roy is talking about using a bigger machine. On my quote I put it down at 15ppm2 which would work out at about £130 for that sort of area. To be honest until I saw the area - access, shape/topography, travel time I wouldn't know.

roy parker said:

so for a 850 sq metre garden you charge £56.00 ????

Jonathan Grayfox said:

When you think a full size tennis court is 855m2, cutting at 6.6ppm2 works out at £56 - thats got to be about right Andy

Andy Thorne said:

 A residents association I do the lawn care for ends up costing 6.6ppm2 to mow, never thought to work it out like this before...

That's cut and collected with G23, edged all round (there are 4 seperate lawns).  Job looks spot on, not rushed (much ;) ) No bits missed out.

 

With a 4' mower at a decent speed you've got to be doing 20+m2 per minute...

 

Dan Frazer Gardening said:

I think Ben's lower figures must relate to huge areas cut with large machines mulching and done very rough/quickly. No other way to make them make sense otherwise. 60 properties is a decent contract - do they all pay you individually? Best of luck.

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Permalink Reply by Neil Petrie BSc Landscape Mgt on September 10, 2011 at 18:15

Can you tell us where this contract is so that we can check it out on google maps/streetview?  It would be much easier to give an assessment based upon even an online viewing. 

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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Grayfox on September 10, 2011 at 18:21

Sorry no can do - the only information given was that it would be 60 properties (a mixture of garden/communal) and you get the opportunity to visit two as a example.

Neil Petrie BSc Landscape Mgt said:

Can you tell us where this contract is so that we can check it out on google maps/streetview?  It would be much easier to give an assessment based upon even an online viewing. 

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Roy Parker on September 10, 2011 at 18:29

is that £56.00 for a cut or per year ????? sorry i am being thick here

Jonathan Grayfox said:

From the information that I have looked at prices vary from 6ppm2 to 30ppm2 .Roy is talking about using a bigger machine. On my quote I put it down at 15ppm2 which would work out at about £130 for that sort of area. To be honest until I saw the area - access, shape/topography, travel time I wouldn't know.

roy parker said:

so for a 850 sq metre garden you charge £56.00 ????

Jonathan Grayfox said:

When you think a full size tennis court is 855m2, cutting at 6.6ppm2 works out at £56 - thats got to be about right Andy

Andy Thorne said:

 A residents association I do the lawn care for ends up costing 6.6ppm2 to mow, never thought to work it out like this before...

That's cut and collected with G23, edged all round (there are 4 seperate lawns).  Job looks spot on, not rushed (much ;) ) No bits missed out.

 

With a 4' mower at a decent speed you've got to be doing 20+m2 per minute...

 

Dan Frazer Gardening said:

I think Ben's lower figures must relate to huge areas cut with large machines mulching and done very rough/quickly. No other way to make them make sense otherwise. 60 properties is a decent contract - do they all pay you individually? Best of luck.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Dan Frazer Gardening on September 10, 2011 at 18:33

Roy it's per cut! But bear in mind this is all hypothetical and doesn't relate specifically to the contract.

Could you imagine cutting an area around 800m2 for £2.50 a time?

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Permalink Reply by John on September 10, 2011 at 18:35

Estimating hedgecutting without knowing the size or accessability/situation is just impossible. Why couldn't you view the gardens ? 

It sounds as though the contract was already won (promised), - other tenders had to be got to cover legal obligations, without any possibilty of winning the tender. 

Jonathan Grayfox said:

The contract is for 60 properties (mixture of gardens and communal areas). I did get to view two vacated properties - grass was long, not cut for a month so two, normally would price at £40 per cut each.

 

Anyway I worked it out as follows, 

 

Garden grass cuts - £20 - Fortnightly (March-Nov)

Communal areas - 15p/M² - Fortnightly (March-Nov)

Removal and disposal of hedges & shrubs - £15/M

 

At a guess I think I am well over the odds especially if your figures are anything to go by Ben. Normally I would survey all the sites and do costing and timings but a guess with this quote you would have to allow a bit extra to cover all eventualities. Its the first time I have been asked to quote in this manner.

My local council website is like a rabbit warren (once you enter you may never come out) but I think I will give them a ring and see if it is possible to see a few winning tenders.

Thanks again for all the advice.

 

 

 

 

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