Replies to This Discussion

PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Ian @ Red Barrow East Sussex on April 9, 2012 at 21:56

Used the buff-coloured Weatherpoint 365 recently, certainly speeds up the pointing, but found the finish a lot grittier and rougher-looking than conventional mortar. 

I guess the finish suits some paving jobs, but not all.

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Premium SupplierPermalink Reply by Steve London Stone on April 10, 2012 at 14:09

Got to agree with you about the weather mick.  Before I got into the  stone business I used to be a landscaper based in stoke.  It was always raining in stoke and I am sure we would have jumped at the chance to use a sweep in product if it were available in those days.  
Just believe that 1 parts are flawed

Steve

Paul @ PPCH Services said:

I recently ground out over 150m2 of polymeric done four years ago and gun pointed with 3-1 with SBR. Grinding out six hours and pointing done in 8.5hours, all solo, material cost ree doing it £40. I hear what Mick says about hairline cracks but the SBR
Minimises this risk. I'm still using the quick point electric gun I posted on a year or two back and have had no issues, in fact it's made me some very good money putting right others work.

I get the point about weather, but if the weather is iffy it just has to wait.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on April 22, 2013 at 18:00

Sand and cement can be crafted so that it stands out and becomes a feature in its own right. Sand and cement is slow and labour intensive. In terms of speed and efficiency versus profit potential, sand and cement pointing (or jointing) is, in effect, a loss leader.

Resin products have brought speed and efficiency to an otherwise slow process but do resin products really make a great paving job become sensational in terms of aesthetics?

Is the extra profit versus what the client receives a justifiable trade-off?

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on April 22, 2013 at 19:10

Thanks for your comment David.

I'm comfortable with using the terminology 'pointing' for paving. It's widely used in building and landscaping.

Tony McCormack defines pointing/jointing of paving
http://www.pavingexpert.com/pointing.htm

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Graham Parker on April 22, 2013 at 19:33

I have considered using Marshalls weatherpoint or similar but just can't get the maths to work in its favour. A tub of weather point is around £40 and does around 8-10 sq m A good labourer should be able to point 10 sq m per hour at a rate of say £10.00 per hr plus say £2 worth of sand cement = £12 per 10 sq m therefore profit for me of around £28 per 10 sq m against weatherpoint.

If I am wrong can someone please explain how maths works in my favour

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on April 22, 2013 at 19:34

Interesting David

But what about mortar pointing/jointing?

Often a mortar joint will fail because - and let's face it's a test for anyone to remain consistent whilst pointing large areas - weather, gauging, mixing, timing and labour does not remain constant.

I personally love a mortar jointing - either a raked out passive or raised/weather struck joint, especially against a material such as York stone flags or even Indian sandstone.

There are clearly problems with resin products but is it fair to say that the main reason for failure is due to poor methods of application?

David Burton said:

Before I pen the following I should declare an interest, my company manufactures mortar!
So, who wants a heated discussion?
I really wonder why anyone would think of using a resin based product to joint external paving, let alone make it. I suppose if someone is prepared to buy something, someone will fill that gap in the market but that should not be a mitigating argument. All the same, it begs the question, who had such a dumb idea in the first place? Possibly a mad scientist with no practical experience.
Resin joint fillers are not rigid, they are plastic. That is they can deform in response to a imposed force, rather like bitumen or plasticine.
Because they have a very low elastic modulus (they're relatively soft), they respond readily to movement of the paving units. This is OK for as long as the adhesion bond between the resin and the paving units survives. However, the extent and frequency of this movement sooner or later results in fatigue failure of the adhesion bond. This is evidenced by small cracks appearing around the paving units, as the resin filler progressively parts company with the paving units.
Once the adhesion bond has weakened and failed, the resin based joint filler does what plasticine would do, it squashes and moves away from the thing pressing on it, the paving unit.
The other problems with using resin based products for paving?
They cause stains which are well nigh impossible to remove.
Resin is not UV stable but as the sun never shines in the UK, perhaps that's not a problem.

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Permalink Reply by Colin Hunt on April 22, 2013 at 19:35

Good bit of foam(most important!), nice bit of washed sand/cement, good well used pointing trowel, nice soft brush, bit of crafsmanship, radio on, get on with it, cant beat it! You won't change me!

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on April 22, 2013 at 19:42

p.s Clearly resin jointing products are becoming more mainstream and widely used so from an industry perspective, regardless of ones individual viewpoint, we have to consider the future and where the market will go in terms of price point and/or product preference.

David Burton said:

Before I pen the following I should declare an interest, my company manufactures mortar!
So, who wants a heated discussion?
I really wonder why anyone would think of using a resin based product to joint external paving, let alone make it. I suppose if someone is prepared to buy something, someone will fill that gap in the market but that should not be a mitigating argument. All the same, it begs the question, who had such a dumb idea in the first place? Possibly a mad scientist with no practical experience.
Resin joint fillers are not rigid, they are plastic. That is they can deform in response to a imposed force, rather like bitumen or plasticine.
Because they have a very low elastic modulus (they're relatively soft), they respond readily to movement of the paving units. This is OK for as long as the adhesion bond between the resin and the paving units survives. However, the extent and frequency of this movement sooner or later results in fatigue failure of the adhesion bond. This is evidenced by small cracks appearing around the paving units, as the resin filler progressively parts company with the paving units.
Once the adhesion bond has weakened and failed, the resin based joint filler does what plasticine would do, it squashes and moves away from the thing pressing on it, the paving unit.
The other problems with using resin based products for paving?
They cause stains which are well nigh impossible to remove.
Resin is not UV stable but as the sun never shines in the UK, perhaps that's not a problem.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on April 22, 2013 at 19:49

We'll have to agree to disagree;-0)

David Burton said:

Hi Phil

Jointing is fine.

Pointing implies poking something into a joint. OK for DIY because they accept failure more readily but not for professionals and this thread is intended for professionals.

OK, it's semantics and I'm deliberately trying to make a point (excuse the pun).

Phil Voice said:

Thanks for your comment David.

I'm comfortable with using the terminology 'pointing' for paving. It's widely used in building and landscaping.

Tony McCormack defines pointing/jointing of paving
http://www.pavingexpert.com/pointing.htm

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Permalink Reply by Thermo on April 22, 2013 at 19:59

well down this neck of the woods every one i know calls it pointing, and my father has done for the last 50 years, so you wont change me on the term if youre going to split hairs,and im with colin, apart from a nice length of closeboard to work it all into the joints, which makes it a lot quicker

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Permalink Reply by John Steiner on April 22, 2013 at 20:07

Pointing / jointing is always an interesting topic, as this thread proves. I have yet to try resin pointing, but have heard good things else where about the marshalls product.

I do agree with David...the wetter the better. You can't use a 'moist' mix just because it is easier to use. If there is not enough water in the mix, the cement won't react as it should. A nice and strong, wet as you dare mix is best and used with a mortar gun. The Rough neck gun with the metal tube is brilliant if you get the water levels correct in the mix. With plenty of plasticiser, it has cut down my pointing time by about half. For sure you need a definite dry day, as you gun it in in the morning, and trowel it and brush it at the end of the day depending on ambient temps.

But I don't enjoy it, it takes for ever and gives you back ache...so have often though about the resin products, so it has been an interesting read.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Trevor JH Knight on April 22, 2013 at 20:24

Hi Matthew, I agree with Phil, Resin based mortars are becoming the norm, after testing very very many and looking at the very different qualities they offer, one thing is very obvious, the time they save against the extra labour element traditional mortars take is huge.

Another thing products like Weatherpoint 365 and Fastpoint they can be installed even when it is raining and that is a huge benefit in getting paid if we end up god forbid with another summer like the last. A lot of the guys I speak to wont use anything else now and some of these were die hard sand and cement users.

I have seen twenty year old resin based mortars in Germany that are as good today as the day it was installed, I wonder if you could say that if it was a 4 to 1 mix? I doubt it.

Things move on for a reason, they are good, I can't see Resin based mortars losing out to sand and cement. 365 Everytime for me....it works.

Trev

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