PRO Member

Legalities of putting down rock salt for residental clients, nothing commercial wise

A few clients have asked me recently if i would be willing to clear snow and apply some rock salt if the weather turns bad again this year.

Ive explained the insurance issues with regards my liability if someone slips and injures themselves, plus if the weather is particulary poor, i may not be able to even get there!

In most cases the rock salt will be supplied by the client, i just need to turn up if required. None of these jobs will have any contractual obligation, just a reactive service or putting down some salt if im there anyway and the weather forecast is for icy/snow conditions.

Is it acceptable, and for that matter legally sound, to get said client to sign a disclaimer to cover my liability if an accident should occur. If a disclaimer would be viable how would one word it to make sure it is legally water tight?

Tags: clearance, disclaimer, gritting, snow

Views: 654

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Permalink Reply by Keiron O'Rourke on November 22, 2011 at 21:31

It applies if we are instructed to salt by a client other than domestic client, Construction and Highway Maintenance come under the same banner so If carrying out maintenance for commercial or a contractual agreement, highway maintenance / Gritting could come under CDM..... everyone has responsibilities.

Regulation 2

Who are clients?

A client is an organisation or individual for whom a project is carried out. Clients only have duties when the project is associated with a business or other undertaking (whether for profit or not). This can include for example, local authorities, school governors, insurance companies and project originators on Private Finance Initiative (PFI) projects. Domestic clients are a special case and do not have duties under CDM2007.

Domestic clients

Domestic clients are people who have work done on their own home or the home of a family member, that does not relate to a trade or business, whether for profit or not. It is the type of client that matters, not the type of property. Local authorities, housing associations, charities, landlords and other businesses may own domestic property, but they are not domestic clients. If the work is in connection with the furtherance of a business attached to domestic premises, such as a shop for example, the client is not a domestic client. In such a case, the client, and will have duties under the Regulations.

Hope this helps

 

regards

keiron

 

 

 

 


ARTNOIRE said:

Hi Guys,

Just a quick query - why would CDM apply to salting?



PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Gary RK on November 22, 2011 at 21:36

To clarify, Keiron - this only applies to public highways - correct (ie adopted by HA or CC or LA) ?

Permalink Reply by Keiron O'Rourke on November 22, 2011 at 21:41

Yes, Unless the premises link to a business of some kind. then it has rights under public access and CDM regardless.

I know its a harsh one in some cases.

 

keiron

 


PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Anthony @ JDC Maintenance on November 23, 2011 at 9:23

What about a residents assoc in conjunction with a management company, would the residental apartments/flats therefore count as a form of business because of the management company involvement?

Keiron O'Rourke said:

Yes, Unless the premises link to a business of some kind. then it has rights under public access and CDM regardless.

I know its a harsh one in some cases.

 

keiron

 


PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Gary RK on November 23, 2011 at 10:06

Anthony, I sought clarification again as this came up during our original Exor vetting and it comfirmed to us that actions such as gritting, grounds care/maintenance/soft landscaping are excluded from CDM regs unless the site is a designated construction site (or a HA Highways - RAG scheme).

Even then 'grounds maintenace' still typically does not come under CDM regs.

If you are 'hard scaping' or fundementally changing certain aspects of the "site', your work COULD come under CDM, so regs would apply.

So, unless you are gritting private roads where the public have right of way and is undergoing a construction phase, as a designated construction site, the answer is was no.

However, it does not remove the need for a contractor to have safe working practices (including method statements & risk assessments in place - which is no different from any other aspect of work you would do for a commercial client AND should form part of your H&S policy/manual).

I think you need to be clear who your clients are - domestic or commercial and whether you are doing this for financial gain as this impacts your PL insurance. 

 

For those that have trouble sleeping, I was sent the attached FULL CDM document this morning  (..OMG..)

Attachments:

PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Anthony @ JDC Maintenance on November 23, 2011 at 15:58

Thanks Gary, most helpful and informative as always

Cheers

 

Gary RK said:

Anthony, I sought clarification again as this came up during our original Exor vetting and it comfirmed to us that actions such as gritting, grounds care/maintenance/soft landscaping are excluded from CDM regs unless the site is a designated construction site (or a HA Highways - RAG scheme).

Even then 'grounds maintenace' still typically does not come under CDM regs.

If you are 'hard scaping' or fundementally changing certain aspects of the "site', your work COULD come under CDM, so regs would apply.

So, unless you are gritting private roads where the public have right of way and is undergoing a construction phase, as a designated construction site, the answer is was no.

However, it does not remove the need for a contractor to have safe working practices (including method statements & risk assessments in place - which is no different from any other aspect of work you would do for a commercial client AND should form part of your H&S policy/manual).

I think you need to be clear who your clients are - domestic or commercial and whether you are doing this for financial gain as this impacts your PL insurance. 

 

For those that have trouble sleeping, I was sent the attached FULL CDM document this morning  (..OMG..)

Permalink Reply by Andy Lawrence on November 23, 2011 at 18:22

Hi Gary,

The statement given doesn't reduce my concerns one iota.

The full statement says it should be carefully considered before any gritting of a public area is carried out and there could be some liability if an injury occurs. I don't blame the Telegraph for printing their story as is.

An unequivical statement is required which says those who carry out this type of work in good faith, in an effort to improve safety, should not be liable for any injuries, however they occur. 

Anything else leaves the door wide open for the no win, no fee guys to boost their pension pots.


Gary RK said:

If i remember correctly the highways agency have adopted the RAG scheme from CDM regs relating to any 'works' on in the highways sector to cover H&S issues. Some believe it may be an overkill....

 

Also, to reduce Anthony's original concerns, see this;

http://www.iosh.co.uk/news_and_events/news/latest_member_news/iosh_...


PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Gary RK on November 23, 2011 at 20:42

Going back to the original info from ODPM :

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_191868

is good enough for me for doing something for a neighbour, friend or elderly person. Not to do anything incase of a 'consequence' will leave this county paralised and people struggling. There is some commentary that you/their Household insurance insurance would cover you should someone persue you.

I have not read of any 'evidence' this has actually happend - is it another scare story type thing or old wives tails?  

Permalink Reply by Andy Lawrence on November 23, 2011 at 21:47

Hi Gary,

Nope, I can pretty much guarantee this has happened. The key word in that information is 'unlikely'. ie it is unlikely you will be found responsible or sued for any such injuries.  

In legal terms that offers you zero protection. I seem to remember David Cameron making similar comments in a speech about this kind of situation when he came into office but to my knowledge (happy to be corrected) no legal changes have been made to offer any additional protection.

I personally know of a guy from my hometown who would spend his free time walking around looking for uneven paving stones etc to 'trip over'. He would make a claim based on hard to verify injuries (bad back anybody?) and companies would invairably settle rather than losing the case and incurring costs.

Sad, but true. Having said all that I'm obviously completely with you. If we can make things safer we should do it regardless.


Premium SupplierPermalink Reply by Paul Errington on November 28, 2011 at 11:54

Gary,

Ever tried using a power sweeper to clear snow and slush? It does a great job. have a look at the attached photo.

 

Paul Errington



Gary RK said:

As a footnote, rock salt will not on it's own clear deep snow.

It either needs to be removed as much as possible or have 'heavy traffic' to get the action going.

Below -5deg, rock salt becomes ineffective unless surface has been pre wetted with brine.

We are looking at this solution for use over here. The US leads the way on means and equipment. Various manufactors hve increased their product range to include pre-wetting solutions.

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