Replies to This Discussion

PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on February 15, 2010 at 10:37

I thought it worth reminding all of us (and some might not have seen this before) that we worked as an association in collaborating the Landscape Juice Aims and Objectives document - the first ever document of its kind created, edited and distributed to a large disparate group of this nature.

We are, by definition, an established association...what we are debating is whether we make the group a legal entity, produce a constitution, raise funds and challenged the historically accepted way?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Christine Fowler on February 15, 2010 at 13:37

For me the answer is quite simple.

I am in my first year of trading as a Garden Designer and am a long way off needing to be VAT registered.I value being a part of a network with other professionals in the field of Gardening and Garden Construction

I am a sole trader wanting to provide a high quality service primarily in South London.

I see no reason why I should charge my clients VAT unecessarily and increase the cost to them of fulfilling the creation of their dream garden...On a more personal note I do not want the hassle of VAT when running my business,I am a designer and do not construct but work in partnership with Landscape Contractors.

Christine Fowler

Christine F
Garden Design and Consultancy

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Nicky @ GardenImprovements.com on February 15, 2010 at 13:45

Hi Christine - there will be no requirement to be VAT registered...if there was nobody would join! But since there has been a lack of response from designers like us - what do you say to Phil's original question?

Nicky @ GardenImprovements.com

Christine Fowler said:

I see no reason why I should charge my clients VAT unecessarily and increase the cost to them of fulfilling the creation of their dream garden

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Christine Fowler on February 15, 2010 at 14:11

I like the sound of Phil's proposition in principle,but wonder what I will get for my money above and beyond being a member of the Society of Garden Designers if I join another association?

It sounds most professional and I think to make any association work it must have paid staff.

I wonder if this will be geared to Landscape Contractors as we are such a small minority as Garden designers.What do you think?

Many Thanks

Christine

• ▶ Reply

PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on February 15, 2010 at 14:47

It's been a pretty passionate debate thus far - some great points have been made well and some great points badly made and there have been unnecessary and unfortunate comments that have been focussed on personalities rather than the points that were up for debate.

I've just read through all of the posts - here are a selection of the ones that stand out as being a sensible approach - I have linked to them so you can check them (it doesn't mean to say I agree with everything that poster has said)

"We should be very wary of moving forward too fast. In order to have any success thing must be considered carefully before being implemented."
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:76927

One of the great attractions to me for the current site is 'it's free'. I'm not sure how a new organisation would benefit my company or my staff and customers?

Basically I'd be happy to subscribe if it were proven that there is a reasonable chance of increased business and or training opportunity for my staff.

I guess what I would not want to see is a new organisation run by a few to the detriment of many. The current forum seems to me to work well, why fix what isn't broken?
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:76934

I don't think the membership fee should be based on turnover, but should be kept relatively low so that most members that want to join can afford to.
&
I think that the new association should try to reach out to as many land-based companies as possible as there are literally thousands of potential members out there, but at the same time there must be some kind of 'vetting' system to keep out the 'cowboys', 'rouge traders' and 'chancers'.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77000

Do we need an association? What would make us different and effective?
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77134

I don't normally sit on any fence, but on this one I think I'm going to have to. Whilst I'm all for promoting LJN and the fantastic advice etc it provides not really sure how an association would work.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77174

Most of my customers don't give a stuff about what clubs I'm a member of. They thing Bali is an island in the Paciffic and APL is text for apple. All they want is a decent job done for a fair price.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77178

A variable fee creates a situation were certain members feel they hold more control as they are contributing more to the finance. To my mind it is imperative that membership is at a consistent level for all or there is a risk of a clique.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77181

The time is ripe for this and if it isn't born from the LJN I fear someone else will do it using the LJN as a proforma.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77183

We should absolutey welcome one man bands/Sole Props, Vat or not reg, Ltd or not etc etc ie any legit land-based business (how that's defined is the small print for later). Hard, soft, maintenance, tree guys, Hort people, designers etc etc would make for a great mix.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77241

I question slightly what is actually wrong, if anything with the Network we currently have on LJN?
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77258

Would E -learning be something that this association would consider. For example the NPTC test?
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77265

Let's stop this effort at trying to put others down and instead concentrate on helping ourselves and others to give a better, safer service to the customer.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77274

I believe that to truly represent the industries we work within then this step must be taken from within the LJN - and as somebody said in this thread, if we don't do it then someone else will.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77278

I think landscape juice as it is, is the way forward.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77310

Everyone should have a voice that can be heard, inrespective of their size, experience or business age.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77352

I believe 80-90% of joe puplic, don't know and are'nt bothered about association membership, possibly for the larger companys this may be different but not lower down the chain.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77360

Like Alan I am also just starting up and was really chuffed at all the information, guidance and advice I have been given. I am a RHS student at present and have been gardening for years but have no qualifications etc. This site has literally been a lifesaver for me and to be honest if I was trawling the internet and came across this site and was asked to pay a fee or prove my metal I would have never have been at the point where I am now.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77372

The only thing that will really impress them is a good job, well done.
By all means have a code of conduct that members can sign up to, but keep it simple, like a mission statement.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77389

Lets be honest here - the plethora of new schemes to avoid rogue traders, the fact that there is no central accreditation authority and a lack of a centralised journal or even recognised industry allows for anyone to call themselves whatever they want. The rise of the LJN is proof in itself that the industry needs this.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77520

I think if we asked ourselves a question,would we have been more sucessfull if lsj was around when we first started in business
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77534

it is about developing what we have here in LJN into a positive and powerful vehicle for bettering standards, each others business, and providing an open, friendly and accessible association the public and to each other.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77767

Does size really matter??! I am a passionate gardener and I strive to give my clients a very good service - reliable, friendly, flexible, cost-effective etc. BUT, I work out of the back of my estate car and I am not VAT registered. Having said that, I do have a degree and various short course certificates, I have £1million Public Liability insurance, and I use good quality, well maintained equipment and tools to get the job done. But it seems there are people on this forum who think because I don't have the necessary turnover to be VAT registered or drive a van that I might be excluded! To be honest, I think I could give a fair number of those people a run for their money in terms of my knowledge and skills and abilities, I just like running a small business that doesn't take my whole life over!
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77820

I strongly believe that an association would divide the current LJN community, even if it were to be made completely separate.

I also believe trade associations have had their day. If the industry really needs ‘change’ then there needs to be a whole new model. All we really need as an industry is support and guidance, not rules, regulations and a sticker to put on our vans... Surely all these ideas proposed can be executed without the need for another trade association and all the and elitist rubbish that comes with them.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77880

The site is great as it is - if it aint broke..........
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77898

It is clear that some members are posting without reading the full thread. This causes repeat questions and answers and inhibits the progress of the debate.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77913

Q: Is LJN ready to start an association?
A: No, it's obvious that opinions are too divided at this time.
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:77919

Size doesn't matter!! The point of any association I feel is to act as a united body that can effect change and benefit all members. It will never be right for everyone, after all we are all individuals and have our own opinions and goals but if helps the majority then it must be a good thing. It also depends on how much you are prepared to commit. It is like going to a a school which has all the wonderful facilities- no use if you don't use them!
http://www.landscapejuicenetwork.com/xn/detail/2074886:Comment:78049

I think that there are many on LJN who still don't understand its very unique approach - if you cannot understand what we have done that is different than other associations then it is worth revisiting some of the documents produced through the site.

LJN's aim is to help progress businesses and individuals by empowering them with the tools to be self exrpessive, encourage everyone to be honest about themselves and their abilities.

Re-read the Aims and Objectives statement..... there are no other organisations who take this view.

• ▶ Reply

PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on February 15, 2010 at 14:54

There has been too much noise on here to be able to form an accurate opinion of where we stand and what positives can be drawn from starting an association.

As we run in to the weekend's vote, I urge everyone to focus directly on the question of 'need'.
There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that LJN can steer changes in the land-based industries...the only real question is, should this be done within a legal wrapper with an administration fee and formal association or continue as we are and bolt on tools and services over time?

• ▶ Reply

Pro DesignerPermalink Reply by Kerrie John-The garden design Co on February 15, 2010 at 17:48

I will try to answer your question as directly as possible.

There is room and perhaps a need for a body run by and for ALL land-based professionals as an alternative to BALI, APL and SGD.

As a designer, I have always hated the idea of being scrutinised by a panel of ‘experts’ who decide if I am up to the mark. I allow my work and reputation to speak for me but would like to belong to some kind of recognised body that can endorse what I do. LJN in some respects already does that now but it would be a more serious endorsement if it were within a ‘legal wrapper’.

LJN’s ethos has always been about fairness, transparency and openness. These seem like pretty good qualities to start some kind of ‘association’ which could be more client led as potential clients/customers really get an impression of who they maybe engaging.

Along with the Aims and Objectives, The Voluntary Charter gives a clear message of positive and professional intent to all potential client’s/customers. I have put it on my Web site and send it out with estimates/quotations and it has been well received.

Turnover is irrelevant. Surely the quality of service, professionalism and skills one provides are key and far more important than how much you can bank. An annual fee would be fair.

As for cowboys and rouge traders, would they, could they really be bothered to belong to an association of any kind? If so what does that imply for the bodies that already exist?

Now I am going to stop because I am starting to go where others have been…….


Philip Voice said:

There has been too much noise on here to be able to form an accurate opinion of where we stand and what positives can be drawn from starting an association.
As we run in to the weekend's vote, I urge everyone to focus directly on the question of 'need'. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that LJN can steer changes in the land-based industries...the only real question is, should this be done within a legal wrapper with an administration fee and formal association or continue as we are and bolt on tools and services over time?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John on February 15, 2010 at 18:55

There are times in history when certain individuals have come together and managed to change the existing status quo.

The fact that LJN works so well is because we have those individuals here now.

To assume that they will still be here if things are delayed is a mistake.

I have no doubt that it can be made to work with hard work, but I do not think we should hesitate and wait because of the fear of failure.

• ▶ Reply

PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on February 15, 2010 at 19:23

Hi Colin

I could not put a figure on this at the moment. I would much rather exhaust the question of whether we need to form an association or keep things as they are first.

Phil

• ▶ Reply

PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Graeme @ BGS on February 15, 2010 at 20:58

Finally we are getting some postings that are addressing the key issue.

Now putting aside who can or can’t join or do we need a van sticker….

I believe that BALI and APL will grow stronger this year and excellently serve those members who are actively involved. I know a few members here would disagree with this statement but unless you are a member I don’t think any of us should criticise them – they serve a purpose and like all “closed shops”, membership does have its privileges. Who said life was fair anyway!

However the above two associations are not there to address the real needs of the many 1,000’s of sole traders or businesses that make up this wonderful land based industry yet they are seen as the main voice of the whole industry mainly because there isn’t an alternative.

We all face many challenges and currently don’t have a vehicle to raise these and be listened to. The LJN is a good forum to seek help and share knowledge not to mention networking with fellow professionals but without undergoing a fairly radical change it has probably reached a point where new functionality and features would be few and far between.

The next logical step would be the creation of a new association as proposed by Phil – it will be one hell of a melting pot with many varied loosely related trades.

If you think LJN is useful and helpful, just think what a formal association could do for you and the wider community? Yes you also get that feel good factor thrown in!

However it will require commitment, money and passion. I am sure that the benefits a member would receive would far out weigh the cost to join.

Yes there is a real need for a new association, Phil is proposing something pretty radical in its approach and trying to make it an all singing all dancing club open to all in this industry.

Will it work? I don’t honestly know! I am sure that if it did come off I hope that it would start by building a stable framework and grow in structure and importance as membership increases.

Don’t be fooled in thinking it will be easy – it will be one hell of a challenge and will need 100% commitment and your time (and money).

Get it wrong and you may have to go cap in hand to APL / BALI at some point in the future and ask forgiveness if you wish to join.

Get it right and it will truly be the real voice of this industry and would have an amazing amount of creditability and then we can start to see real change.

I have been fairly vocal on other posts in the past about forming a paid membership association and something that I still fully support, If I am honest, I have reservations that a legally formed association to serve the masses of this industry and to influence the future is something that LJN members could handle. I guess it will be down to how many raise to the challenge and throw their support behind this.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John on February 15, 2010 at 21:00

It is imperative that the development of LJN into an official body would re-invent the concept of an associaton through our ideals of collaboration, mutual support and benefit, improving our industry and re-inventing the public view of our industry. The LJN forum should still run as is...nobody is going to lose that.

I cannot see ANY valid argument AGAINST an association.

Funding the LJN through donations will not work and donations are not a plausible method of sustainment. We are not a charity, we are both a business-to-business and a business-to-public network and it is clear we need proper sustainable funding. Sponsorship is possible but if we can create the New-Model association some of us are describing then I believe this to be the way forward.


I agree totally, LJN is unique, and the new association will also be unique.
The membership qualification,through the transparancy of the applicants previous posts and their profile page on LJN, as well as their business website and length of experience in the business, will be there for all to see.
Putting in the hours on LJN should be a prerequisite.

I would imagine that Phil did not fully know what the outcome of LJN would be when he set it up, but it did not stop him. At least we have the added knowledge of knowing that we will have a pretty good team to take it one step further.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Neil Petrie BSc Landscape Mgt on February 15, 2010 at 23:35

I've been watching the discussion all the way through until now but didn't really want anything to do with it. I don't want to join any association, at least not now anyway. I enjoy the freedom that LJN gives, the free uninhibited flow of ideas and interchange of knowledge, but do not feel an association is for the majority on the site. What LJ does right now is good enough. It is taking shape organically but with Phil as director of proceedings. He has been at the healm taking control in matters when he feels the need to, but allowing other things to take shape according to us, the members and users, and how we see fit from our vaying backgrounds, cultures and lines of work within the landscape industry.

It is all good but I wont be in agreement with any association. At least not right now. Certainly not interested in the politics anyway - which is what primarily puts me off being involved.

Until now I was quite happy to see how this discussion rolled and then bring my thoughts together with regards whether I wanted to be a part of it or not but thought I'd just add my thoughts anyway.

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 7
• 8
• 9
• 10
• 11
• …
• 19
• Next ›
• Page