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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Gary RK on June 7, 2012 at 17:38

That Steve, is a well constructed, balanced, logical reply.

Steve Rice said:

I'm indebted to Gareth for calling our attention to this & providing the link to the Parliamentary group reports, which I found very interesting reading.  I was taught at college (mid-1990s) that glyphosate was basically "benign" - harmless to humans & animals as a diluted solution, absorbed only through green tissue and rapidly broken down to harmless substances in the soil, with no residual properties.  It now seems that all of this is at least open to question, if not completely incorrect.

As noted by Pip Howard, Professor Huber's evidence seems to be very strong - peer reviewed published science - and being invited to contribute to the Parliamentary group gives some validity to his "independence" - but, as noted by Gary, his work does seem to relate mainly to the repeated use of glyphosate, especially on "Roundup Ready" GM crops.  I couldn't find anything in these reports to really worry me about once-off use to clear an area prior to redeveloping it for planting/turfing (or even cropping) - though I did note the apparent effects on locking up nutrients and harmful effects on beneficial microbes, which might suggest compensating for this with specific fertilisers and perhaps making use of the mycorrhizal fungi products such as "Rootgrow"?

To me, the research findings suggest far more caution is needed in repeated application to the same ground, such as agricultural use, but also for weed control on hard landscaped areas - especially those which are permeable to allow infiltration of rainwater (SUDS), etc.  Perhaps such usage should require the land to be registered as industrially contaminated, needing specific remedial work before any subsequent change of use - though it's difficult to see how this could be enforced for residential hard landscape areas, even if use was restricted to professionals.

Regarding whether glyphosate should be a restricted (licenced user) product - the vast bulk of certificated landscape professionals are, clearly, capable of reading, understanding & abiding by the labelled usages of pesticides, including glyphosate-based products such as "Roundup".  It also seems to me that the availability of small volumes of glyphosate at Garden Centres, etc, perhaps restricted to ready-mixed to mitigate against over-dosing, to enable "casual" usage as a total weeedkiller for domestic purposes, by amateurs, should be no more problematic - provided they also follow the label.  Without wishing to be too condescending, this may be an assumption too far!

I should think that 99% of us on this forum are neither plant biologists nor biochemical scientists and are therefore (like me) not competant to judge for ourselves the efficacy & risks of products which are made available to us by the industry following approval for use by the regulators.  That said, it does make you worry when the reaction of the US regulator (the FDA) - as noted by Dr. Huber in answering Christopher Stopes' question - to observed increases in glyphosate residues in food crops is to raise the permitted residue levels!

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Permalink Reply by David Channon on June 7, 2012 at 22:20

This is political pressure group stuff, not good science.

There may be some underlying truth but it is bundled in a lot of mumbo jumbo.

I'd trust this information about as much as I'd trust Wonga.com for finanacial advice

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Permalink Reply by Gareth Wilson on June 9, 2012 at 18:55

Personally I think all chemicals should only be used when totally necessary . The fight against horsetail, ground elder etc would be a nitemare without Glyphosate.

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Permalink Reply by Rose Lennard on June 11, 2012 at 9:08

Some interesting articles on Roundup on the Ecologist website, including this one: http://www.theecologist.org/green_green_living/behind_the_label/269.... My own thinking is that a massive multinational like Monsanto which stands to make such a vast amount of money out of a product such as Roundup is going to do a pretty good PR job on the product, and present it as a lot more benign than it actually is - they have such a vested interest in covering up any down sides. I personally avoid use of herbicides as much as possible, but have routinely advised clients in the past that Roundup is the 'least worst' option for one-off clearing of weed infested land. If there are good alternatives, we need more education and dissemination. Any alternatives will probably require more skill and hence use of better trained professionals - all things that LJN is a good vehicle to promote.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on June 18, 2012 at 21:05

Thanks Steve (sorry for the slow response).

I hadn't thought along those lines. Some of the plants have been in for four years or more and looked really healthy until now. I will try a different feed though and see how it goes.

Steve Rice said:

Phil - if you've planted into "holes" within a compacted subsoil area, is it possible that they have no/little drainage, with the composted holes acting as "sumps" and becoming waterlogged?  The aromatics, especially, wouldn't tolerate this and would have poor root systems that aren't able to take up the nutrients - this might then show up as the magnesium-deficiency yellowing.  If not, could maybe try some high magnesium (calcified seaweed?) fertiliser, rather than the high potassium tomato feed.
 
Phil Voice said:

I have a problem with a few plants on the terrace of our gite.

The gite was renovated and extended in 2006 and I didn't have time to construct a proper terrace before our first paying guests arrived to I literally threw down 20mm shingle over hard compacted (sub)soil.

A year later I bought a few plants and planted them into the soil and raked the gravel back and they grew merrily away. I did excavate decent planting holes and added organic matter.

Because the gravel is on top of soil and there is no sub-base I get weeds from time to time. If I catch them young enough I hand weed but sometimes, if I've been busy, I will resort to glyphosate.

At the end of last year I noticed that the leaves on my campsis were yellowing with the leaf veins becoming extremely prominent. I put this down to a lack of nutrient. However having fed the campsis with tomato feed I did not see an improvement.

Now I'm more concerned because my rosemary, which as you know is usually bullet proof and great in industrial lifeless soils, is showing the same symptoms. So too is my phygelius, thyme and hydrangea quercifolia.

In my view there are three or four possible reasons for this:

1. Residual glyphosate build-up in the soil
2. A lack of nutrient in the surrounding compacted soil
3. Leaking sewage pipe (which runs diagonally under the terrace)
4. Over feeding due to run-off from the pot plants adjacent

I personally view 2,3 & 4 as unlikely but it would be good to hear your views.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on June 18, 2012 at 21:06

I think farmers do the same with peas too.

The Winchester Gardener said:

What I didn't realise is that farmers use Glyphosate to spray on acres of Rape when it is ready, as apparently it is easier to harvest afterwards...... Very worrying when you look around the countryside at all those yellow fields. It looks like it will increase in the farming sector as Rape is now worth £388/ton compared to £214/ton 2 years ago.

Personally I am making a real effort this year to reduce all chemical use - including lawn treatments and work as organically as possible.

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Permalink Reply by David Benson on June 18, 2012 at 23:19

the photos look like there is a magnesium deficiency (use a solution of Epsom salts)

the farmers use glyphosate to kill off other plants/weeds so there is a clean crop when harvested it also costs a lot more to plant and harvest than it did 2 years ago never mind the price of the seed

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Permalink Reply by Colin Hunt on June 19, 2012 at 6:38

Responible use is the key as far as I am concerned.  Most of us would have factored this into our maintenance, so to stop using it would add significant costs to some contracts 

The next biggest culprits (if you take farmers to be the biggest) are the local authorities, who seem to require a barren 2' minimum band round trees, signs and either side of fences which looks awful. 

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Stuart @ Eco Garden Maintenance on June 19, 2012 at 7:14

There is nothing that looks worse than a large area of brown dying vegetation. 

Colin Hunt said:

 

The next biggest culprits (if you take farmers to be the biggest) are the local authorities, who seem to require a barren 2' minimum band round trees, signs and either side of fences which looks awful. 

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by David Cox on June 19, 2012 at 8:10

In leeds, the council have quad bikes that ride out the roads andpavements spraying a mix of GLyph and Mecoprop-p onto the kerbs and all the surface, and the edge of the grass to stop it encroaching. That constitutes mass chemical use in an urban area! Its killed some of the hedge next to my allotment plot, and they did it on a very windy day last week (illigal) so drift may yet hit my food crop.

Colin Hunt said:

The next biggest culprits (if you take farmers to be the biggest) are the local authorities, who seem to require a barren 2' minimum band round trees, signs and either side of fences which looks awful. 

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Permalink Reply by CIME on June 19, 2012 at 8:46

A study made by a french landscaper (TARVEL) shoes that the cost for responsible use is higher the first two-three years and then goes bellow classical maintenance the third year.

And for responsible councils, Ecojardin label is born...

Colin Hunt said:

Responible use is the key as far as I am concerned.  Most of us would have factored this into our maintenance, so to stop using it would add significant costs to some contracts 

The next biggest culprits (if you take farmers to be the biggest) are the local authorities, who seem to require a barren 2' minimum band round trees, signs and either side of fences which looks awful. 

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Pip Howard on June 23, 2012 at 22:42

This came through my twitter feed earlier tonight - Herbicides found in Human Urine: http://www.ithaka-journal.net/druckversionen/e052012-herbicides-uri... - the research cited by Caen University can be found here: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx800218n?journalCode=crtoec

If nothing else - at least take care.

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