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• PRO

  Brian www.mibservices.co.uk December 28, 2011 at 5:22pm

  If Carlsberg made posts on charge rates, job costs, how much do I charge for, and business running costs then this would the best thought provoking post in the world. Lets see how well heeded it is !!??
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  Craig Nester December 28, 2011 at 10:17pm

  Hi Gary

  i think most people that ask these questions know the answers, they just don't know that they know! People get easily confused with buisness "jargon" and worried at the thought of all the paperwork and calculations needed! These threads are good links for people to look and see that it really isnt as hard as some may think!

  Good work! Craig.

   
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  Richard@www.seasons-garden.co.uk December 29, 2011 at 10:21am

  A very good post Gary. I suspect however that many people in this industry do not know these details. Once all your overheads, running costs, wages, deductions and dare I say it profit have been taken into account it can be hard to accept how much you need to charge in order to run a business and make money.

  My main bugbear has always been that horticultural trades are undervalued and that the industry is flawed. We can't dictate what other people should charge but someone operating on a shoestring and prepared to charge low rates either through ignorance or because they feel they won't get the work has a direct knock on effect to those who are running a business properly and charging accordingly. In my experience the majority of clientelle still perceives gardening as a paid hobby, it is unregulated and requires no qualifications - anyone can have a go and they do. Lack of business nouse drives down rates. It's controversial but you could question why anyone would want to do such hard work and charge so little in the first place.

  Maybe the day will come when H&S and the compensation brigade get their hands on the industry so that the minimum requirements are proof of PL insurance and a competance certificate in the use of garden machinery like the arboreal trade requires. A comparison is someone I know who has run a successful car valeting business for 20 years. As you'd expect they have all the neccesary and correct machinery and use only the best products. They are fully insured and guarantee their work and have undertaken work for clients such as Porsche, Ferrari, Mercedes etc. Imagine how they feel when they see signs posted in towns saying 'Car Hand Wash from £3.00'

  I think many of us on LJN find it annoying to put it mildly when people ask 'how much should I charge' or 'I've got to quote for XYZ - what do others charge' etc. It's your business - you should know. If you get it wrong - learn from it. Keep your head in the sand for too long and it will eventually catch up with you. Start 2012 as you mean to go on!
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  Fenlandphil December 30, 2011 at 7:19am

  A very good article Gary.

  I was reading my emails this morning when I came across an article on Linkedin although the article didn't at first glance seem particularly relevant to my business, this section leapt out at me in tems of relevance both to me and to anyone else in business.

  "Price wars are a race to the bottom

  Many entrepreneurs think that a competitor will come in and beat them on price. You may lose some customers, but in the long haul, a competitor can't be you by just being cheaper. If a competitor does come into your market and competes solely on price, do not be tempted to constantly lower your price to beat them. Instead you should fight on product quality and the true return on investment for the user. When it comes to a competitor that comes into your market and offers a product for free that you have charged for, then you may have a problem depending on what type of business you are building. If you are building a company built upon fast growth, then your business model may be flawed in the first place. If it's not, then you should dig in deeper as to why the competitor is offering the product for free. They will eventually have to turn a profit, whether it is by charging YOU or someone ELSE."

   Jason L. Baptiste

  The full article can be found at 13 ways to crush your competition. On a more general note it is always important to try and think outside the box always worth looking outside of our own field to get a better insight into what we ourselves are doing. My daughters' boyfriend has recently started a business and despite a recession and a very low level of market activity in his area of business is doing exceptionally well. His father who has a background in banking and retailing has been very useful to him although his experience has not been in the field that the business is in.

   
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  Faith Caine January 29, 2013 at 7:47pm

  Whilst I also agree in principal and yes we should all know everything about our business what about the man who just wants to garden? or the man who knows about cars? (or is that not politically correct)? Tradespeople -plumbers, brickies, electricians mechanics they were just that! They knew their business they enjoyed their work but it does not seem to be about that now. The KISS systems seem to have got lost somewhere along the line. At one stage talking numbers would have been like a foreign language or am I just too simple? You did your work and you got paid. Simple as!
• PRO

  Gary RK January 29, 2013 at 8:19pm

  But if you are trying to make a living how do you do it without knowing the fundamentals of your finance ?

  If making a living is not your focus (ie you are in a trade to just keep busy, supplement existing pay, top up pension and are effectrively a 'jobbing tradesman' then fair enough...

  You don't have to know everything, but knowing the basic is a no brainer..surely ?

  You owe it to yourself, client and importantly your family ....
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  Paul McNulty January 29, 2013 at 9:47pm

  Faith, I understand your point. But, if you don't know your costs you can't do two things.

  Firstly, you can work to reduce costs, or increase charges, if you understand where you're leaching money. Waste disposal is a good example here, or thinking twice about grouping work so you cut mileage costs.

  Secondly, you can learn where you might add value; offering extras that might be worth more to the client than it costs you to provide. I've found this with lawn treatments, for instance, as I don't have to pay a franchise cost so can be competitive with national businesses whilst still making a bit extra.

  Being honest here, do you know any plumbers, electricians, mechanics, or skilled builders such as brickies or carpenters, who charge less than your average gardener? I wonder if they are asking on their forums how they could charge less, and keep it simple?
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  Faith Caine January 30, 2013 at 7:58am

  I am not talking about the simple ins and outs I am talking about the more complex side and I am not saying gardeners should earn less than anyone what I am saying is the simplicity of things has gone.

  Yes we need to know the basics but as fenlandphil has said his daughter's boyfriend's " father who has a background in banking and retailing has been very useful to him". We don't all have that luxury. I have an admin/ accounts /marketing background and that is my part of the business ( as well as gofa and general dogsbody!) Simon whose business it is is a creative and handson person - a "handy person". that' s why he does what he does. Not the accounts. I know for a fact if he had to have more "figure" knowledge and admin he would not be self employed. We are a fortunate combination. Not everyone does has a "pal"

  Perhaps they come on here looking for real people to talk to but don't know where to start so start by asking knowledgeable people on this excellent resource for help. Perhaps asking "how much should I charge?" is there way in or perhaps they don't know how to get going within LJN

  I worked at the Local council for a short period and they were putting all their road sweepers on courses for skill building! amongst many other things. The number of the lads who commented "I just want to come in to work. I like what I do I don't want to do courses". They just weren't that way and not everyone is.

  I have a son at College completing a carpentry and joinery course. His academic achievements at school were not good but he is very "arty and crafty" as I call it. At 19 if he wanted to start his own business he would not have a clue! Not because he could not be capable of the actual work but the figures and the complexities of admin would frighten him to death and he would not have a clue. he would not be able to turnover enough business to pay for some one to guide him. And who would guide him (apart from the advantage of having me to help!!) ? He will then be in the devil and the deep blue sea scenario - get a job and work for someone else (if there are any jobs?) or what?

  I have been on this network and I find it a mine of information. But that's me! But to Simon - not his cup of tea. For my son not his cup of tea! Why because they are a dfferent sort of person and need different routes to market so to speak.

  I hope all reading this realise that I am on a "healthy debate" and not "have a go" mode.
• PRO

  Gary RK January 30, 2013 at 12:43pm

  I think you take one of two routes in most 'trades' - you either go work for someone and just provide the 8am-6pm labour/trade skill set or you want/plan to be in control of your own destiny - ie a sole trader or more......

  The difference lies with the fact most in our trade who come on LJN and other forums are self employed/sole traders and typically not employees.

  As sole traders (and, by definition are 'business' people - of what ever level) they do not have the luxury of falling back on an employer who makes all the decisions for their behalf.

  Round my way, there are many Councils who run start up courses (in association with Enterprise Groups) for new businesses free of charge covering the legalities, accounting, marketing, websites and other skills needed to make a new business succeed.

  I have had the benefit of a Mentor and have repaid this by mentor-ing for others thru my Enterprise group. Go try it - it is hugely enjoyable with a sense of achievement

  Self help, followed by peer support (ie LJN) is the starting block..A quick web search provides many free opportunities to gain business skills. My view is if people themselves do not go look for and gain skills, why should anyone else bother to help them?

  There is an amazing amount of guidance, info and recommendations etc on LJN which many seem not to use - preferring the easy (and/or lazy way ?) of asking someone else to do it for them. Often there are no 'metrics' / details or photos supplied to help their cause. Even worse, I have seem some not even say thank you when people do help.

  Another thought : A nice touch would be that if you have massively benefited from someone's experience / documents etc on LJN, how about at least returning the favour to the network or make a financial donation to help the network to survive - is that too radical ?????

  I'm known to have very strong views about ensuring this network survives and feel many take it too much for granted.......

  It is a healthy debate and hopefully will encourage more people to go look and read the threads highlighted and further search for there own answers which can then be discussed on here.

  ....After all, we are all in business ....and hopefully to make a living

  Ok, Lunch break over and back to work :-)
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  Faith Caine January 30, 2013 at 6:15pm

  I have stuck my ahead above the "parapet" and feel perhaps a clip round the earhole is what I have received?
  Perhaps encouragement is needed for the less verbally , administratively and business savvy - to "foster" comfort in coming forward. Perhaps they need nurturing? And need to develop in a different way? As I am sure you are aware not all people are the same
  Is not what these hardworking individuals do creative? - artistic - and perhaps academia is not there forte?
  I monitored LJN for at least a year before registering. I then just watched and read not because I wanted anything as a freebie but because i did not know how to ingratiate myself into the network. Why? because I had to assess how welcoming groups/discussions/people were and indeed how pertinent the site and discussions wereand indeed if we as a business have anything to offer. And I am not a novice on the internet.
  From little acorns grow oak trees.
  Skills you talk of " free of charge covering the legalities, accounting, marketing, websites and other skills needed to make a new business succeed" not everyone is capable of understanding such things to such a degree. And a lot of things take time to learn and come with experience (yes sometimes costly experience)
  It would be nice in these tough times to have the choice to be employee or employer? But needs must for some. I have to guide my son for example through the big wide world. Where he may not have a choice as to whether he “wants” employment or to be an employer.
  I have seen examples of individuals who should never ever have gone into self employment but were “guided” ( I admit I don’t know how) in to taking these “skills” courses only to not have a “cat in hells chance” of running a business as everything was “straight over their heads”. They are just not that way.
  I have personal local knowledge of builders, plumbers, gardeners, landscapers, block pavers small local businesses who need to try, and want to move with the times but it is all too much and beyond them so they stay where they are! and none of these have a clue with regard to marketing, the internet, websites, ppc, Google - they say who’s she!
  The KISS SYSTEM would probably be of benefit to businesses such as these. Yes we are all in business but we are not all the same and one cap does not fit all.