Open Association of Landscape Industries
Anyone for Dr Shigo
We live just off a small village that has a fine church with many handsome trees in the surrounding churchyard. Next to the church is what used to be the old schoolhouse with a splendid old willow out front. One pub in the village did have a big lebanon cedar in the garden but they needed to cut it down so as they could get insured. Its not been the same pub since.
--- very late into a Sunday night I left this comment for LJN member John, who has a lot of letters after his name in arboriculture consultancy.
At 4:35am on 2nd March 2009, pete said... Hello John, I'm not qualified to do tree climbing work but I have my silky and I'm always precise with it and very caring for each tree. Thing is, I can't get over how many pruning jobs I've seen that leave the trees looking just plain ugly, especially birch, this surely cannot be the right way to care for a tree. I've read a bit about Alex Shigo and would like to know more. What do you think of his methods? If you do rate him, would there be a chance you could pen a short piece about him for the LJN people. Best wishes to you, - Pete.
What I was hoping for was someone who'd be able to get across to us how important trees really are - from making oxygen to, ....well..... just to look at - try and imagine not seeing any ... Trees have always been with us and they're part of us. I believe we were evolved at a time when things were more beautiful in the world and that "beauty" is therfore kind of important to us, ...
Then at 9:00am on 2nd March a truckload of blokes arrive in our village and perform surgery on the willow.
"Correct pruning leads to healthy, beautiful and safe trees" "Correct pruning begins with an understanding of branch anatomy"
"Alex Shigo disputed the validity of many techniques that the arboricultural industry has used for over a century. His work "proved" that old techniques were shown to be unnecessary or, even worse, harmful".
"He found that trees respond to injuries by sealing the wounded area through the process of "compartmentalization".
Instead of "healing" like our skin, an injury to a tree trunk results in the surrounding cells changing themselves chemically and physically to prevent the spread of decay. New cells are produced by cells lining the cut area to cover and seal the injured area. Instead of trees healing, trees actually seal."
"Bad news is, many commercial arborists continue to perform flush cuts, toppings, and other practices that Dr. Shigo's research shows to be harmful. In many cases, arborists perform these practices knowing they are harmful, but believing their business cannot survive by practicing their craft under Shigo guidelines".
-- I at last got hold of the fellow to ask about this willow (came 2nd in a hedge-laying comp.) and he said to me "yeah, pollarded willow, what's the matter with that? I saw them do it - good job - only took 3 hours - at least £40k worth of kit" - apparently its been done like this two or three times over the last 20 years. - My mate has gone down in my estimation - or maybe this wasn't quite the right occasion to talk of Dr Shigo.
--- very late into a Sunday night I left this comment for LJN member John, who has a lot of letters after his name in arboriculture consultancy.
At 4:35am on 2nd March 2009, pete said... Hello John, I'm not qualified to do tree climbing work but I have my silky and I'm always precise with it and very caring for each tree. Thing is, I can't get over how many pruning jobs I've seen that leave the trees looking just plain ugly, especially birch, this surely cannot be the right way to care for a tree. I've read a bit about Alex Shigo and would like to know more. What do you think of his methods? If you do rate him, would there be a chance you could pen a short piece about him for the LJN people. Best wishes to you, - Pete.
What I was hoping for was someone who'd be able to get across to us how important trees really are - from making oxygen to, ....well..... just to look at - try and imagine not seeing any ... Trees have always been with us and they're part of us. I believe we were evolved at a time when things were more beautiful in the world and that "beauty" is therfore kind of important to us, ...
Then at 9:00am on 2nd March a truckload of blokes arrive in our village and perform surgery on the willow.
"Correct pruning leads to healthy, beautiful and safe trees" "Correct pruning begins with an understanding of branch anatomy"
"Alex Shigo disputed the validity of many techniques that the arboricultural industry has used for over a century. His work "proved" that old techniques were shown to be unnecessary or, even worse, harmful".
"He found that trees respond to injuries by sealing the wounded area through the process of "compartmentalization".
Instead of "healing" like our skin, an injury to a tree trunk results in the surrounding cells changing themselves chemically and physically to prevent the spread of decay. New cells are produced by cells lining the cut area to cover and seal the injured area. Instead of trees healing, trees actually seal."
"Bad news is, many commercial arborists continue to perform flush cuts, toppings, and other practices that Dr. Shigo's research shows to be harmful. In many cases, arborists perform these practices knowing they are harmful, but believing their business cannot survive by practicing their craft under Shigo guidelines".
-- I at last got hold of the fellow to ask about this willow (came 2nd in a hedge-laying comp.) and he said to me "yeah, pollarded willow, what's the matter with that? I saw them do it - good job - only took 3 hours - at least £40k worth of kit" - apparently its been done like this two or three times over the last 20 years. - My mate has gone down in my estimation - or maybe this wasn't quite the right occasion to talk of Dr Shigo.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gareth on -
It is worth building up a relationship with different trusted outfits who can pass work on to each other. Thats bad form to take advantage of this and hopefully firms “stealing” work suffer in the long run from no referrals.
I must admit I don’t fall into “the customer is always right” camp. I have the advantage that I work for regular customers so I have some leverage when it comes to being asked to do jobs that would be bad practise or unnecessary. I have fallen out with a small percentage of customers for not agreeing to a particular request but in the main the majority of customers value your expertise if you show them good and bad ways to carry out a job.
You talk to a customer about why they want lopping or similar done and as has been said before it’ll probably come down to light, worries about safety, and space. None of which are solved, and are probably made worse long term, by lopping.
Surely there’s exactly the same amount of work out there, if these issues were dealt with positively; sensitive planting, careful pruning etc? It does seem that there needs to be a big shift in attitudes towards trees though.
Rob Glassborow said:OK, I am just a NPTC 30&31 qualified person. I dont advertise for tree work, other than Malus, prunus, Acer etc which is really pruning. However, I have often been asked when quoting for Mowing, Lawn care, Hedge work etc to look at lopping a tree which is far beyond an annual prune. If the customer asks for it to be drastically lopped, and it is within doing so without ropes, and I can handle the waste without chipping, I will usually quote. If it is beyond my means, then I refer them to the Arboriculturists.
On the flip side. I always used to refer tree work, small-medium felling to tree surgeons if I was quoting for a wider job. However, I found on numerous occaisions where I had done so, they had subsequently under quoted, and taken away the hedging, or MOWING job from me. Ergo, fair is fair, it seemed to be a joke in one of the earlier threads about Tree Surgeons taking hedging jobs from people. But, when it is the other way round it is cause for plagurised debate.
There are many times when you have to practise un text book horticulture for a customer, and this is usually because they have asked for it, just have a look at all the lollipop shrubs the UK shows with pride. But, at the end of the day, if the client wants a remedial fix of a job, then so be it.
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Permalink Reply by Rob Glassborow on -
Dont get me wrong, I dont just lop them if there is money to be had. I will be the first to point out the whys, and wherefores. But, if it is what the customer wants, and it is within my capabilities, then I will peovide the sevice.
I did turn down a building of a tree house last year over a willow, simply beacuse the client wanted it cutting back to the trunk stem, and a treehouse building on the new cuts. I went to extra lengths to tell him why this wouldnt work due to the new growth. The job would have been in the 5K region, but I declined. Hence, my commitment not to cut where not a good idea!
Unfortunatley, most, not all, just want a quick fix.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Gardens4u.co.uk on -
nice :) will need to be cut again soon ;)
pete said:
the willow tree seven months on....
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Permalink Reply by Alasdair @ TheGardenService Ltd on -
Great thread.
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Permalink Reply by Melissa Morton on -
I don't often respond to forums but feel driven to comment on this one. I have to say it is one of my burning pet hates when I see trees butchered like this.
Lopping like this completely destroys the beauty of the framework of the tree. Where possible pruning should be done to enhance its natural form and habit which can be enjoyed in winter also - not like these specimens!
Where possible clients should be advised of alternative ways to reduce the size of a tree - perhaps the general public assume that 'lopping' is best practice?
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