Open Association of Landscape Industries
An email from Tim
"Hello Philip,
I really want to raise a concern I have over the bigotry and racism that appears on the forum. The latest thread that makes racist attacks on a minority is called 'Dodgy sods'. Replace the phrase "travelling community" (his inverted commas, not mine) with Asian, black, Welsh or anything else. It's been mentioned before that it's not only the regular posters that visit the forum, but potential customers; is this how you would like the industry to be represented? Are these the people you would like your company to be associated with? It is absolutely NOT mine, and has been the reason that I do not sign up. I would be horrified if any of my customers thought that I shared the posters' opinions. Surely there is a set of T&Cs that must be agreed to while registering; do these not include forbidding making group attacks?
I've seen the same casual racism on the site before. If the same remarks are still being made, am I to assume it is condoned by the forum's moderators?
I'm sending this directly to you out of respect for the forum, however much I would like to publicly hold the posters' to account.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter,
Regards,
Tim"
Sadly apart from signing himself of as Tim, Tim is otherwise anonymous...and that's a great shame.
I removed the thread 'Dodgy Sods' yesterday. Not because I was embarrassed or disagreed with posters' views or comments but because I had little time and I was unsure of my legal position.
I am quite certain that the thread was meant with the best intentions. Whilst some of the language used was not an ensemble of words I'd have necessarily chosen myself I shared some of the concerns raised.
In my view there is absolutely no reason why we should not debate delicate subjects in an adult manner. I apologise to Andy Doughty for removing his thread although I did take time to explain my reasons via a private chat. It was Andy's decision, ultimately, that the thread was removed.
To shy away from valid debate on the basis that it isn't politically correct is both cowardly and morally bankrupt.
I''d hope there are many who would agree with me that the landscape industry (although Landscape Juice has worked hard to change this) spends too much time patting itself on the back and leading sycophantic PR campaigns without spending time on what matters to the majority of its practitioners?
Theft of landscaping and garden equipment is a major problem for our industry and there must be efforts to restore law and order and protect the livelihoods of those affected by theft of equipment.
Sadly travelling families are responsible for a lot of crime and it is recognised by leading politicians. Back in 1999 an unrepentant Jack Straw MP said:
"Travellers are people who think that it's perfectly OK for them to cause mayhem in an area, to go burgling, thieving, breaking into vehicles, causing all kinds of other trouble including defecating in the doorways of firms and so on".
Source BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/428915.stm
I found the above on Political Correctness - the awful truth whilst researching Travellers and theft, before writing this post.
I think the author of the website makes a very valid point (directed at Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Campaign for Racial Equality) when he says: "Trevor - the problem is not one of race - it is one of anti-social behaviour."
A recent court case in which a gang of men were convicted of the grooming and rape if young white girls in Bradford found that police and social workers may have been able to stop the abuse some four years earlier but were afraid to do so because they felt they would be accused of being racist.
In responding to this thread, please think before you reply.
Tags: bigotry, correctness, debate, political, racism, tightful
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by chris nangle on -
well said Andy
andy@ Doughty Garden Maintenance said:Well, it appears i've opened a can of worms,
So... Tim.... Why did you not also approach me to discuss my comments and how you were offended by them?
I can assure you i'm not racist, I just have a big problem with any group of people, regardless of race, that think they are beyond the laws that everyone else abides by, laws that make our country a civilized one.
I have a big problem with anyone, regardless of race, who believes they can just take what they want from where they want at the cost of others who live an honest hard working life.
Where I live the issue is a serious one as I live in the country, which means a lot of farms, a lot of machinery and equipment, and a lot of oppertunity to steal from them. I don't know anyone who doesn't share the same view as me around here. These people are determined to make themselves as abrasive to normal society as possible, relishing in their anti social behaviour and bringing their children up with the same principles, My point is: why are you surprised that they're not winning any friends amongst hard working people like ourselves who stand to lose a hell of a lot because of their decisions.
However, this is just my opinion of course,
other brands of social annoyances are available!!
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Graeme @ BGS on -
Just to add a bit of fire to the discuss :-)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18155255
"Racism towards eastern European and gypsy and traveller communities is also on the increase,"
Whilst I detest racism of any form I do have to question if we are all getting a bit too PC and frighten to speak out for risk of offending.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Graeme @ BGS on -
Must be a Lightwater thing - had a mower lifted from the van by three guys a few years back - police said the same but these came all the way from Essex.
Busy Bee Garden Services Limited said:I was working yesterday in Lightwater about a metre from my van parked on a customer front driveway and I heard something coming from the van, as I walked towards the van there were 3 gentlemen of irish parentage admiring my long reach hedgetrimmer, I think I have sorted out the new sport as I chased them towards a getaway car but alas for them their getaway driver was not the best and I was able to keep my tools as he stalled. Mind you they looked like tradesmen all dressed in hi-vis jackets and hard hats. The first question th epolice asked was are they travelliers? Are they racist I ponder, was I racist in not allowing them to keep my tools, over to you Timbo?............................
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Gary RK on -
May I have your attention please?
Will the real Slim Shady please stand up?
I repeat, will the real Slim Shady please stand up?
We're gonna have a problem here..
( with apologies to Eminem....;-)
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Permalink Reply by Andy Lawrence on -
I have to say I find it very disheartening that Timism is still alive and well in this country.
Yes, Tim Henman was annoying, what with his weedy on court air punching etc, but that doesn't mean we can just have a go at all Tims. This is exactly the kind of stereotyping we need to get away from.
And just because Tim has wrongly branded members of this forum as rascist in a completely misguided attack doesn't mean we can presume that he is a lentil munching, Guardian reading, Lib Dem voting, social worker.
Oops, forgot, freedom of speech should be banned, right Tim?
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Permalink Reply by Richard Boyd on -
Talking to a trades person today (how politically correct am I? NOT;) ) Who was saying that a job had been interrupted due to some kind of Newt being involved...
His comments were "I'd have dumped Lime in to the pond, that would have sorted it...you just blame the Gypos..." "Bats ferking hell if I saw one in the morning, it would not be there that night...blame the gypos"
An easy scapegoat, didn't Hitler do the same?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
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Permalink Reply by Benedict Green on -
Godwin's Law not applied until page 5. Not bad going considering the subject matter :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_lawTalking to a trades person today (how politically correct am I? NOT;) ) Who was saying that a job had been interrupted due to some kind of Newt being involved...
His comments were "I'd have dumped Lime in to the pond, that would have sorted it...you just blame the Gypos..." "Bats ferking hell if I saw one in the morning, it would not be there that night...blame the gypos"
An easy scapegoat, didn't Hitler do the same?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on -
Isn't it Mark:)
Sadly the Whitehill cricket club is now defunct (or at least the club is no more and the pitch is now effectively common land.
Mark Watson said:What a small world Phil, I lived in Bordon from 1980-1985 off and on.Used to play cricket for Lindford, and Whitehill were our arch enemies !
Phil Voice said:My home town was Bordon in Hampshire. I lived on the edge of the next village called Whitehill and went to school at Blackmoor (on the estate owned by the earl of Selborne).
I grew up in an area where travelling families had settled. As a baby my first home was a caravan on the Redhouse caravan park in Hogmoor Road. I later moved with my mum and dad to a council house in Firgrove.
I grew up with travellers. One of my best friends, who was two years older than me and lived three doors away, was from a travelling family and looked out for me. His granddad was everyone's granddad. We called him granddad and my dad knew him as pop.
All around me as I grew up were travellers. Some living on caravan sites and others who'd settled into council houses. Many building new houses. I can think of many travellers whom I'd respect and think them nothing less than myself or others. There are travellers I call friends
However there were several travelling families who were constantly in trouble. Children truanted and their parents fought battles with the local youth and soldiers outside the Prince of Wales pub after closing.
The local Bordon Herald would report each week on thefts of machinery and equipment as well as who'd been convicted. Occasionally there were more serious offences.
There's no denying that travellers featured in the crime statistics but so did other repeat offenders who were (as far as I'm aware) not from the travelling community. It was so easy, however, to lay the blame at the travellers' door without knowing the complete facts.
I went on to employ a member of the travelling community. For me this didn't work out well.
Before I sold my business, one of my earliest clients' York stone patio was stolen - I started cutting grass for this client in May 1984 and shared a glass of wine on my terrace the week before I moved here to France in September 2004.
My client lived and worked in London during the week and only returned on a Friday afternoon.
I had my suspicions who carried out the theft. This person owned (or at least a member of his family did) a small field just one mile from where the theft took place. I took a chance and visited this field (it had a hard standing where a stable once stood, now surrounded by an earth bank).
Sure enough there was a similar amount of York stone that had been stolen the day before. I reported this to the police but they were (deliberately?) slow to act and by the time the local office went to investigate the stone had been moved...we never saw it again and the client was forced to claim on their insurance.
I have had vehicles, windscreens, wing mirrors and machinery stolen over the +20 years of business.
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Permalink Reply by Gabino Carballo on -
Interesting debate. In my opinion, there is a lot of faux non-racism in the UK. I would say that racism and xenophobia are as rife as anywhere else, generally speaking, but most people are too polite to acknowledge, discuss or address it.
It is generally disguised under a thin veneer of contempt and nastiness that can be quite difficult to detect and even more difficult to combat and defend yourself against.
At the end of the day, it does come down to manners. If you are going to be racist or offensive in your views about certain groups of people, do so certain charm, not using insulting definitions.
And I don't think that using nasty and offensive definitions make you a racist or a xenophobe. What makes you so is thinking that you are naturally superior and that you are entitled to certain privileges, whilst putting the boot on other people's aspirations to dignity and respect.
My wife is British and I usually refer to Brits as "Pink Bums", "Scolded Prawns" and various other expressions that would have me banned instantly if I used them here. I am not a racist and my wife has not left me yet, so I may be onto something. Colourful language makes for a little joy in life.
This rule is applied to certain people and I am not thinking of Prince Phillip. It is not good sport to use your position in life or society abuse people, but this is precisely what some people do, sometimes for profit and with public money:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/clarkson-sees-nothing-wrong-with-...
People do find Clarkson hilarious and charming, I suppose that he is an outlet for all kind of nasty views lurking beneath a polished presentation act. I cannot see why he can be so offensive whilst being funded with public money whilst everybody else has to keep up the pretence.
And yes, people stealing stuff from building sites and setting up "protection" rackets in Spain do belong about to specific group that you may have mentioned.
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