Open Association of Landscape Industries
An email from Tim
"Hello Philip,
I really want to raise a concern I have over the bigotry and racism that appears on the forum. The latest thread that makes racist attacks on a minority is called 'Dodgy sods'. Replace the phrase "travelling community" (his inverted commas, not mine) with Asian, black, Welsh or anything else. It's been mentioned before that it's not only the regular posters that visit the forum, but potential customers; is this how you would like the industry to be represented? Are these the people you would like your company to be associated with? It is absolutely NOT mine, and has been the reason that I do not sign up. I would be horrified if any of my customers thought that I shared the posters' opinions. Surely there is a set of T&Cs that must be agreed to while registering; do these not include forbidding making group attacks?
I've seen the same casual racism on the site before. If the same remarks are still being made, am I to assume it is condoned by the forum's moderators?
I'm sending this directly to you out of respect for the forum, however much I would like to publicly hold the posters' to account.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter,
Regards,
Tim"
Sadly apart from signing himself of as Tim, Tim is otherwise anonymous...and that's a great shame.
I removed the thread 'Dodgy Sods' yesterday. Not because I was embarrassed or disagreed with posters' views or comments but because I had little time and I was unsure of my legal position.
I am quite certain that the thread was meant with the best intentions. Whilst some of the language used was not an ensemble of words I'd have necessarily chosen myself I shared some of the concerns raised.
In my view there is absolutely no reason why we should not debate delicate subjects in an adult manner. I apologise to Andy Doughty for removing his thread although I did take time to explain my reasons via a private chat. It was Andy's decision, ultimately, that the thread was removed.
To shy away from valid debate on the basis that it isn't politically correct is both cowardly and morally bankrupt.
I''d hope there are many who would agree with me that the landscape industry (although Landscape Juice has worked hard to change this) spends too much time patting itself on the back and leading sycophantic PR campaigns without spending time on what matters to the majority of its practitioners?
Theft of landscaping and garden equipment is a major problem for our industry and there must be efforts to restore law and order and protect the livelihoods of those affected by theft of equipment.
Sadly travelling families are responsible for a lot of crime and it is recognised by leading politicians. Back in 1999 an unrepentant Jack Straw MP said:
"Travellers are people who think that it's perfectly OK for them to cause mayhem in an area, to go burgling, thieving, breaking into vehicles, causing all kinds of other trouble including defecating in the doorways of firms and so on".
Source BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/428915.stm
I found the above on Political Correctness - the awful truth whilst researching Travellers and theft, before writing this post.
I think the author of the website makes a very valid point (directed at Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Campaign for Racial Equality) when he says: "Trevor - the problem is not one of race - it is one of anti-social behaviour."
A recent court case in which a gang of men were convicted of the grooming and rape if young white girls in Bradford found that police and social workers may have been able to stop the abuse some four years earlier but were afraid to do so because they felt they would be accused of being racist.
In responding to this thread, please think before you reply.
Tags: bigotry, correctness, debate, political, racism, tightful
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Colin Hunt on -
This is a live site and sometimes a topic can turn into a ‘lively’ debate – how boring it would be if it was all ‘sitting on the fence, middle of the road’ stuff. For ‘Tim’ to introduce the ‘racist’ card as he/she has, tells us a lot about his character – or is he simply a mischief maker winding Phil up!
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Permalink Reply by David Channon on -
I think its too easy to be cowed by others playing the PC racism card into saying nothing at all in case you get it wrong.
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.Its the members of this forum and their nose for a dodgy character that helps protect hundreds of innocent OAP's and other clients from being ripped off. My mum values the chap who comes and mows her lawn and tidies her garden every month partly for the job he does, partly for the regular company and chat but also because he was bold enough to challenge a dodgy character who was trying to give her some bollox about the tree in her front garden.
So please LJN members, don't be shy about calling a spade a spade.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Gary RK on -
Phil,
I assume that "Tim's" email provides the ability for you to respond and invite him to review and participate further in this discussion. If so, have you done that (I suspect I know the answer anyway..) and have you had any further contact ?
Also, should the original post or topic be re-instated - what are people's view on that ?
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on -
Tim's membership is pending but there's insufficient detail to ascertain who Tim really is.
I think it would be doing a great disservice to LJN members if Tim was allowed to participate in this debate without everyone knowing who they are dealing with.
For the record, Tim has protested because I published his (her?) email in full on the forum.
Gary RK said:Phil,
I assume that "Tim's" email provides the ability for you to respond and invite him to review and participate further in this discussion. If so, have you done that (I suspect I know the answer anyway..) and have you had any further contact ?
Also, should the original post or topic be re-instated - what are people's view on that ?
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Permalink Reply by Fenlandphil on -
I know I am not the Phil concerned :-), I think it may be problematic for Phil if he reinstated a thread that someone had complained about as he owns the site.
It might be worth mentioning that we are all minorities of one and being singled out by an identifiable group be they Travellers, Jehovahs Witnesses or Jedi Knights should allow us the same protection as afforded to the other minorities. So if we are the victims of crime comitted by travellers we should be able to claim a racial element when the crime is prosecuted and the sentence increased accordingly.
If the boot was constantly on the other foot then the appetite by criminals to play the race card would diminish very quickly.
Gary RK said:Phil,
I assume that "Tim's" email provides the ability for you to respond and invite him to review and participate further in this discussion. If so, have you done that (I suspect I know the answer anyway..) and have you had any further contact ?
Also, should the original post or topic be re-instated - what are people's view on that ?
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Permalink Reply by pete on -
If we want racism to go away then a good way would be to stop talking about it – but I have wondered what an Asian family living in England might feel if they watch an old Margaret Rutherford film.
I can't remember Andy's thread now but I remember someone on here saying how he'd seen off some thieves... “quick as a flash I was round and ready to sledge in their bonnet... – where'd you go bud? - hopefully you were just p'd and pressed the wrong button??
I hope this isn't in bad taste - it's meant to be lighthearted..
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by andy@ Doughty Garden Maintenance on -
Just catching up on all the new comments, Thanks for your support, glad i'm not alone in this!!
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Permalink Reply by Richard Thornton on -
The travelling community have few friends, as their chosen lifestyle often brings them into conflict with the rest of society. It's their choice. They are not a race however, so whilst we may be narrow minded we're not racists!
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by andy@ Doughty Garden Maintenance on -
I don't really think i'm Narrow minded Richard, people make their own choices in life and that is fair enough, I understand that not all travellers are criminals and I appreciate that it is all too easy to tar them all with the same brush.
But the fact remains that a percentage of them do break into vans and steal equipment and threaten people! on my original thread several members told of their own experiences with them. This percentage are quite proud of their choices and therefore deserve the lack of respect afforded them by the rest of society.
During a private chat with Phil when my thread was under review, he also correctly pointed out that there are members of normal society that are also criminally minded and responsible for theft of equipment. This is very true but in my area, this sort of crime doesn't really happen until the travellers arrive. Is this coincidence?
Also in my mind the very nature of their way of life encourages and breeds a complete disrespect of general society. They often forcibly move onto land with no permission whatsoever, costing local authorities a fortune to evict them and then to clean up the site after they do leave. To them the rest of society is there for using, stealing from and basically taking the p**s out of!
I don't want to get into trouble again, but these are my opinions (and also those of a lot of people) as a man that works hard six days a week to provide a decent standard of living for our three daughters, as a man that pays my taxes and my rent and my bills, as a man that saves and buys the things that i want and goes without if i can't afford them.
Perhaps I am narrow minded, but i sure as hell am not going to change to make them happy!!
Richard Thornton said:The travelling community have few friends, as their chosen lifestyle often brings them into conflict with the rest of society. It's their choice. They are not a race however, so whilst we may be narrow minded we're not racists!
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Stuart @ Eco Garden Maintenance on -
seconded
andy@ Doughty Garden Maintenance said:I don't really think i'm Narrow minded Richard, people make their own choices in life and that is fair enough, I understand that not all travellers are criminals and I appreciate that it is all too easy to tar them all with the same brush.
But the fact remains that a percentage of them do break into vans and steal equipment and threaten people! on my original thread several members told of their own experiences with them. This percentage are quite proud of their choices and therefore deserve the lack of respect afforded them by the rest of society.
During a private chat with Phil when my thread was under review, he also correctly pointed out that there are members of normal society that are also criminally minded and responsible for theft of equipment. This is very true but in my area, this sort of crime doesn't really happen until the travellers arrive. Is this coincidence?
Also in my mind the very nature of their way of life encourages and breeds a complete disrespect of general society. They often forcibly move onto land with no permission whatsoever, costing local authorities a fortune to evict them and then to clean up the site after they do leave. To them the rest of society is there for using, stealing from and basically taking the p**s out of!
I don't want to get into trouble again, but these are my opinions (and also those of a lot of people) as a man that works hard six days a week to provide a decent standard of living for our three daughters, as a man that pays my taxes and my rent and my bills, as a man that saves and buys the things that i want and goes without if i can't afford them.
Perhaps I am narrow minded, but i sure as hell am not going to change to make them happy!!
Richard Thornton said:The travelling community have few friends, as their chosen lifestyle often brings them into conflict with the rest of society. It's their choice. They are not a race however, so whilst we may be narrow minded we're not racists!
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Permalink Reply by Richard Thornton on
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Sorry Andy and Stuart! Am writing this on my phone, which for an old dyslexic technophobe ain't easy! What I meant was being anti traveller isn't being racist! It may be other things, but certainly isn't racist as they aren't a separate race.
My other passion is railways (yup own a full size train set!) and you should read the comments on forums such as WNXX re metal theft and travellers!
At the risk of being banned, I don't believe that running your van on red diesel, living in a caravan and nicking metal makes you a member of a separate race, sub species maybe. It's a lifestyle choice! I, and my customers have had metal and other things stolen by travellers, so if I'm un pc, I'm sorry but that's how I see it! Anyway I completely agree with you Andy!
Richard
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on -
My home town was Bordon in Hampshire. I lived on the edge of the next village called Whitehill and went to school at Blackmoor (on the estate owned by the earl of Selborne).
I grew up in an area where travelling families had settled. As a baby my first home was a caravan on the Redhouse caravan park in Hogmoor Road. I later moved with my mum and dad to a council house in Firgrove.
I grew up with travellers. One of my best friends, who was two years older than me and lived three doors away, was from a travelling family and looked out for me. His granddad was everyone's granddad. We called him granddad and my dad knew him as pop.
All around me as I grew up were travellers. Some living on caravan sites and others who'd settled into council houses. Many building new houses. I can think of many travellers whom I'd respect and think them nothing less than myself or others. There are travellers I call friends
However there were several travelling families who were constantly in trouble. Children truanted and their parents fought battles with the local youth and soldiers outside the Prince of Wales pub after closing.
The local Bordon Herald would report each week on thefts of machinery and equipment as well as who'd been convicted. Occasionally there were more serious offences.
There's no denying that travellers featured in the crime statistics but so did other repeat offenders who were (as far as I'm aware) not from the travelling community. It was so easy, however, to lay the blame at the travellers' door without knowing the complete facts.
I went on to employ a member of the travelling community. For me this didn't work out well.
Before I sold my business, one of my earliest clients' York stone patio was stolen - I started cutting grass for this client in May 1984 and shared a glass of wine on my terrace the week before I moved here to France in September 2004.
My client lived and worked in London during the week and only returned on a Friday afternoon.
I had my suspicions who carried out the theft. This person owned (or at least a member of his family did) a small field just one mile from where the theft took place. I took a chance and visited this field (it had a hard standing where a stable once stood, now surrounded by an earth bank).
Sure enough there was a similar amount of York stone that had been stolen the day before. I reported this to the police but they were (deliberately?) slow to act and by the time the local office went to investigate the stone had been moved...we never saw it again and the client was forced to claim on their insurance.
I have had vehicles, windscreens, wing mirrors and machinery stolen over the +20 years of business.
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