Open Association of Landscape Industries
An email from Tim
"Hello Philip,
I really want to raise a concern I have over the bigotry and racism that appears on the forum. The latest thread that makes racist attacks on a minority is called 'Dodgy sods'. Replace the phrase "travelling community" (his inverted commas, not mine) with Asian, black, Welsh or anything else. It's been mentioned before that it's not only the regular posters that visit the forum, but potential customers; is this how you would like the industry to be represented? Are these the people you would like your company to be associated with? It is absolutely NOT mine, and has been the reason that I do not sign up. I would be horrified if any of my customers thought that I shared the posters' opinions. Surely there is a set of T&Cs that must be agreed to while registering; do these not include forbidding making group attacks?
I've seen the same casual racism on the site before. If the same remarks are still being made, am I to assume it is condoned by the forum's moderators?
I'm sending this directly to you out of respect for the forum, however much I would like to publicly hold the posters' to account.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter,
Regards,
Tim"
Sadly apart from signing himself of as Tim, Tim is otherwise anonymous...and that's a great shame.
I removed the thread 'Dodgy Sods' yesterday. Not because I was embarrassed or disagreed with posters' views or comments but because I had little time and I was unsure of my legal position.
I am quite certain that the thread was meant with the best intentions. Whilst some of the language used was not an ensemble of words I'd have necessarily chosen myself I shared some of the concerns raised.
In my view there is absolutely no reason why we should not debate delicate subjects in an adult manner. I apologise to Andy Doughty for removing his thread although I did take time to explain my reasons via a private chat. It was Andy's decision, ultimately, that the thread was removed.
To shy away from valid debate on the basis that it isn't politically correct is both cowardly and morally bankrupt.
I''d hope there are many who would agree with me that the landscape industry (although Landscape Juice has worked hard to change this) spends too much time patting itself on the back and leading sycophantic PR campaigns without spending time on what matters to the majority of its practitioners?
Theft of landscaping and garden equipment is a major problem for our industry and there must be efforts to restore law and order and protect the livelihoods of those affected by theft of equipment.
Sadly travelling families are responsible for a lot of crime and it is recognised by leading politicians. Back in 1999 an unrepentant Jack Straw MP said:
"Travellers are people who think that it's perfectly OK for them to cause mayhem in an area, to go burgling, thieving, breaking into vehicles, causing all kinds of other trouble including defecating in the doorways of firms and so on".
Source BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/428915.stm
I found the above on Political Correctness - the awful truth whilst researching Travellers and theft, before writing this post.
I think the author of the website makes a very valid point (directed at Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Campaign for Racial Equality) when he says: "Trevor - the problem is not one of race - it is one of anti-social behaviour."
A recent court case in which a gang of men were convicted of the grooming and rape if young white girls in Bradford found that police and social workers may have been able to stop the abuse some four years earlier but were afraid to do so because they felt they would be accused of being racist.
In responding to this thread, please think before you reply.
Tags: bigotry, correctness, debate, political, racism, tightful
Replies to This Discussion
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Gary RK on -
Andy agree.
It's exactly because of the 'race/racist' card being played by people such has Tim, that delicate subjects such as this topic can not be openly discussed without fear of being labelled 'racist'.
We have commercial clients that have to go to extreme lengths to protect property at certain times of the years as a result of previous incidents ( often to which police have been become involved ).
I believe the situation has become worse over recent years as the law (human rights law etc in uk & eu) struggles to cope with such communities or groups of people
Live by rules and laws in force, become part of the community, pay tax and contribute to the countries economy, have respect for others and their property and then the public's view may be different. Mine, included.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by David Cox on -
If 90% of people called dave decided it was okay to steal cars - that doesnt make all Daves bad - but it does make it a safe assumption that the likelyhood is, the next dave you meet will attempt to take your car.
On that note - I have strong evidence that 90% of Daves are infact law abiding.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Phil Voice on -
Here's a coincidence.
Blackmoor fruit farm have this morning reported 50 fruit trees stolen from their nursery (Blackmoor Estate's land completely surrounds the house where the patio was stolen from and the horse field where I found the York stone). http://twitter.com/BlackmoorFruit/statuses/204499197272133632
The plants were to form part of Blackmoor's Hampton Court display.
I'll try to follow up if there's any developments.
Phil Voice said:My home town was Bordon in Hampshire. I lived on the edge of the next village called Whitehill and went to school at Blackmoor (on the estate owned by the earl of Selborne).
I grew up in an area where travelling families had settled. As a baby my first home was a caravan on the Redhouse caravan park in Hogmoor Road. I later moved with my mum and dad to a council house in Firgrove.
I grew up with travellers. One of my best friends, who was two years older than me and lived three doors away, was from a travelling family and looked out for me. His granddad was everyone's granddad. We called him granddad and my dad knew him as pop.
All around me as I grew up were travellers. Some living on caravan sites and others who'd settled into council houses. Many building new houses. I can think of many travellers whom I'd respect and think them nothing less than myself or others. There are travellers I call friends
However there were several travelling families who were constantly in trouble. Children truanted and their parents fought battles with the local youth and soldiers outside the Prince of Wales pub after closing.
The local Bordon Herald would report each week on thefts of machinery and equipment as well as who'd been convicted. Occasionally there were more serious offences.
There's no denying that travellers featured in the crime statistics but so did other repeat offenders who were (as far as I'm aware) not from the travelling community. It was so easy, however, to lay the blame at the travellers' door without knowing the complete facts.
I went on to employ a member of the travelling community. For me this didn't work out well.
Before I sold my business, one of my earliest clients' York stone patio was stolen - I started cutting grass for this client in May 1984 and shared a glass of wine on my terrace the week before I moved here to France in September 2004.
My client lived and worked in London during the week and only returned on a Friday afternoon.
I had my suspicions who carried out the theft. This person owned (or at least a member of his family did) a small field just one mile from where the theft took place. I took a chance and visited this field (it had a hard standing where a stable once stood, now surrounded by an earth bank).
Sure enough there was a similar amount of York stone that had been stolen the day before. I reported this to the police but they were (deliberately?) slow to act and by the time the local office went to investigate the stone had been moved...we never saw it again and the client was forced to claim on their insurance.
I have had vehicles, windscreens, wing mirrors and machinery stolen over the +20 years of business.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by andy@ Doughty Garden Maintenance on -
I like it David :-D
David Cox said:If 90% of people called dave decided it was okay to steal cars - that doesnt make all Daves bad - but it does make it a safe assumption that the likelyhood is, the next dave you meet will attempt to take your car.
On that note - I have strong evidence that 90% of Daves are infact law abiding.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by andy@ Doughty Garden Maintenance on -
That's what I was trying to say Gary, but i went for the long winded version :-)
Gary RK said:
Live by rules and laws in force, become part of the community, pay tax and contribute to the countries economy, have respect for others and their property and then the public's view may be different. Mine, included.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by andy@ Doughty Garden Maintenance on -
My apologies Richard I must have got the wrong end of the stick, I'm pretty good at that!!
Richard Thornton said:Sorry Andy and Stuart! Am writing this on my phone, which for an old dyslexic technophobe ain't easy! What I meant was being anti traveller isn't being racist! It may be other things, but certainly isn't racist as they aren't a separate race.
My other passion is railways (yup own a full size train set!) and you should read the comments on forums such as WNXX re metal theft and travellers!
At the risk of being banned, I don't believe that running your van on red diesel, living in a caravan and nicking metal makes you a member of a separate race, sub species maybe. It's a lifestyle choice! I, and my customers have had metal and other things stolen by travellers, so if I'm un pc, I'm sorry but that's how I see it! Anyway I completely agree with you Andy!
Richard
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Permalink Reply by Andy Lawrence on -
I think Tim, if that is his real name, is a coward, the end.
If he doesn't even have the courage to give his full/correct name then why should his comments be taken seriously? I'm sure 'Tim' is a big believer in free speech/liberty/equality for all etc, etc and yet at the same time is happy to demonise anyone whose views do not tally with his own.
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Permalink Reply by Richard Thornton on -
It doesn't make Daves a separate race either! Maybe I'm just Daveist!
David Cox said:If 90% of people called dave decided it was okay to steal cars - that doesnt make all Daves bad - but it does make it a safe assumption that the likelyhood is, the next dave you meet will attempt to tKake your car.
On that note - I have strong evidence that 90% of Daves are infact law abiding.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Watson on -
What a small world Phil, I lived in Bordon from 1980-1985 off and on.Used to play cricket for Lindford, and Whitehill were our arch enemies !
Phil Voice said:My home town was Bordon in Hampshire. I lived on the edge of the next village called Whitehill and went to school at Blackmoor (on the estate owned by the earl of Selborne).
I grew up in an area where travelling families had settled. As a baby my first home was a caravan on the Redhouse caravan park in Hogmoor Road. I later moved with my mum and dad to a council house in Firgrove.
I grew up with travellers. One of my best friends, who was two years older than me and lived three doors away, was from a travelling family and looked out for me. His granddad was everyone's granddad. We called him granddad and my dad knew him as pop.
All around me as I grew up were travellers. Some living on caravan sites and others who'd settled into council houses. Many building new houses. I can think of many travellers whom I'd respect and think them nothing less than myself or others. There are travellers I call friends
However there were several travelling families who were constantly in trouble. Children truanted and their parents fought battles with the local youth and soldiers outside the Prince of Wales pub after closing.
The local Bordon Herald would report each week on thefts of machinery and equipment as well as who'd been convicted. Occasionally there were more serious offences.
There's no denying that travellers featured in the crime statistics but so did other repeat offenders who were (as far as I'm aware) not from the travelling community. It was so easy, however, to lay the blame at the travellers' door without knowing the complete facts.
I went on to employ a member of the travelling community. For me this didn't work out well.
Before I sold my business, one of my earliest clients' York stone patio was stolen - I started cutting grass for this client in May 1984 and shared a glass of wine on my terrace the week before I moved here to France in September 2004.
My client lived and worked in London during the week and only returned on a Friday afternoon.
I had my suspicions who carried out the theft. This person owned (or at least a member of his family did) a small field just one mile from where the theft took place. I took a chance and visited this field (it had a hard standing where a stable once stood, now surrounded by an earth bank).
Sure enough there was a similar amount of York stone that had been stolen the day before. I reported this to the police but they were (deliberately?) slow to act and by the time the local office went to investigate the stone had been moved...we never saw it again and the client was forced to claim on their insurance.
I have had vehicles, windscreens, wing mirrors and machinery stolen over the +20 years of business.
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Permalink Reply by John on -
Travellers have been parked on a local village green for the last two
weeks, it is something they do every year. Two groups of about 20
caravans.
They were evicted this weekend, and this morning I noticed the council
dropping off four large skips by the two copses in the middle of the green,
where all the gardening and bulding rubbish had been dumped.
So not only don't they have to pay to dump their rubbish, the tax payer then
has to pay to clear it all up.
I heard today that if you have a sign on your door, like - No Hawkers
then it is illegal for anyone to knock and ask if you want work done.
- But then again it is illegal to dump rubbish on a village green,
but it doesn't stop them.
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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Paul McNulty on -
I had a huge shock today! My MP3 shuffled a track by an artist called "Cher". A song called "Gypsies, tramps and thieves".
I don't now if "Tim" is aware of it, but the song is clearly racist, and stereotypes vulnerable groups......
Perhaps he should turn his attentions to this far more damaging slur on the travelling community?
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Permalink Reply by Busy Bee Garden Services Limited on -
I was working yesterday in Lightwater about a metre from my van parked on a customer front driveway and I heard something coming from the van, as I walked towards the van there were 3 gentlemen of irish parentage admiring my long reach hedgetrimmer, I think I have sorted out the new sport as I chased them towards a getaway car but alas for them their getaway driver was not the best and I was able to keep my tools as he stalled. Mind you they looked like tradesmen all dressed in hi-vis jackets and hard hats. The first question th epolice asked was are they travelliers? Are they racist I ponder, was I racist in not allowing them to keep my tools, over to you Timbo?............................
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