Replies to This Discussion

PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Dan Frazer Gardening on April 6, 2012 at 17:25

Gary, I find (in loose gerneral terms) the owners of the most expensive houses are least aware of the costs of running a business and think gardeners should just be glad to get paid for a day's work at any rate.

Most of my gardens, say under £200k property value, are the ones who ask "are you sure that's enough" and are almost always the ones who give a tip and least likely to query pricing. They also show most gratitude for a good job done and tend to show a personal interest in me in conversation too. These people realise that it costs a lot of money to fuel, repair, buy and run machines, pay tax, wages, training and insurances etc. This is why I never flinch when I am asked to quote for what seems to be a cheap property. I have some wonderful dependable and friendly clients in houses worth a lot less than mine and the work is profitable for me.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by David Cox on April 6, 2012 at 19:06

Dan - I find that this is often the case in certain areas of Leeds, but not in others - I also tend to find that the ones who are most likely to think we should earn less than enough to pay minimum wage are the ones who brought houses at the height of the boom and are now finding that their £700k house is more like £550k - so they seek to scrimp but still preserve their lifestyle.

Gary - Im glad its working for you - and you will soon find yourself in a stronger position. For those who dont bit the fair hourly rate - try fixed price quoting? They may pay less than with the £8ph folk but get more done by you with the correct tools! Think last nights watch dog... chopping tree stumps by hand...!

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Permalink Reply by Richard@www.seasons-garden.co.uk on April 6, 2012 at 19:22

So what are the average profiles of clients and which ones are good for business?

Millionaire who loves gardening - money & potential work no limit?

Millionaire who hates gardening - can't justify spending on something they see as simply another bill whilst loading the new golf clubs into the BMW?

Middle Englander in late 60s who is property rich and cash poor, loves garden but sees the profession as unskilled and low paid by rights?

Ditto above but sees garden as a priority spend and understands the effort/costs involved commands a respectable fee plus some courtesy and plenty of tea?

Amenity land under contract - just make it look nice and wait 3 months for your money?

Anymore to add to the list? And I've said it before - no one questions what a plumber charges.....

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Brian www.mibservices.co.uk on April 6, 2012 at 19:36

Richard, very very few commercial works will have you waiting 90 days for payment, I only do commercial work, housing estates, schools, factory's, industrial parks etc etc and I have all my customers on 30 days, some even pay at 21 days. Much better rates and long term stability of income over 12 months. Personally I would recommend every maintenance company to have at least three commercial customers on their books. I moved away from domestic work 6 years ago for the very reasons and opinions above, slogging away for a tenner a hour ??, thanks, but no thanks. Commercial is where the real money is, and IMHO, every small business should get at least some of them on their books.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Steve Sonic Grounds Maintenance on April 7, 2012 at 8:41

Very good point Brian.
I also stopped domestic for the same reason. I don't think domestic customers realise the costs we have to pay out just to get to their site.
I've always preferred commercial work and I very very rarely have to wait more than 30 days for payment.

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Permalink Reply by Colin Hunt on April 7, 2012 at 10:14

Spread the load!  This is good, basic business advice.  Our maintenance client base is spread between large commercial, retirement homes, blocks of flats, professional private, small private, large country garden and of course our lovely friendly pensioners.  All recieve the same attention and I'm not sure where this '90 days payment' business comes from, all of our commercial customers pay on 30 days.

www.mibservices.co.uk said:

Richard, very very few commercial works will have you waiting 90 days for payment, I only do commercial work, housing estates, schools, factory's, industrial parks etc etc and I have all my customers on 30 days, some even pay at 21 days. Much better rates and long term stability of income over 12 months. Personally I would recommend every maintenance company to have at least three commercial customers on their books. I moved away from domestic work 6 years ago for the very reasons and opinions above, slogging away for a tenner a hour ??, thanks, but no thanks. Commercial is where the real money is, and IMHO, every small business should get at least some of them on their books.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Gary RK on April 7, 2012 at 10:38

We also have our income 'exposure' spread across multiple markets, but mainly the commercial world for reasons that suit us.

Again, I'm not sure where this preception about +90 days comes from - I'm sure there have been and will be slow payers in all market sectors.

Most of our commercial clients pay within 14-21 days, some 30 days and one 45 days, but it is contractual, ~75% via direct debit and it is constant, committed income.

Once you are into the payment cycle it is painless and allows me to sleep at night.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Nick @ NM Garden Services Ltd on April 7, 2012 at 17:02

My commercial clients usually pay on time.....it's the domestic customers who end up getting chased (usually over small bills).

Nick

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by Stuart @ Eco Garden Maintenance on May 5, 2012 at 15:24

Went to quote for a garden clearance job today. The bungalow is for sale, is empty and is in a right old state. There is about 5 days work and a few trailer loads of waste to remove. Not very interesting work but pays the bills. On leaving the owner said to me "you will charge about £100 a day don't you?". I replied it was more than that and left saying i would email the quote. Where do people like this get their ideas? I expect i wont get this job and will not be losing any sleep if i dont.

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Permalink Reply by James @ KentGardening on May 5, 2012 at 16:42

To chip in here a little, I do find its the older generations who still believe that land based industries, in this case gardeners, should be paid lower rates than other industries. In reality those who think we can run on 10 or 15 pounds per hour are used to employing 'mr odd job man' from the village who doesn't have over heads, is retired and ultimately works for cash for the pub, or alike.

We professionals have over heads and costs which must be covered before we earn a wage or profit on the job. For those jobs that don't measure up, simply walk away. There are the schools of thought which say perhaps earning 15 pounds per hour is better than sitting at home, but accepting this depends on your circumstances, how desperate you are financially and how busy you are at the time. I don't doubt this thread has already mentioned the fact that many odd  job men take probably twice as long as a pro gardener and therefore don't work out any cheaper in the long run to a client. 

There will always be someone willing to work for less in every industry, recently I have found it with a job taking down conifers in a garden. The job was quoted at 3 days, big trees, long drag, all rope and harness work, all material had to be rigged due to sheds and greenhouses and yet still someone pops up and offers to do it in 1 day for half the price. Whilst speed in the arb world comes with experience, I personally was not willing to push myself and crew to even come close to matching the other quote, irrespective of money, due to the health and safety of the job. I have shown the job in question to others in the arb community and all came out with a slightly higher price than me and for 3 days, so I know I was in the right ball park figure. 

There are times in this world when you just have to stand back and let others get on with it. In a garden maintenance situation I have found most of those who get someone cheaper come back to me the next season with the same stories of unreliability and poor work etc. 

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Permalink Reply by John on May 5, 2012 at 18:12

The gulilty party once again is the government in office,

in these days of hign tech' systems, the ability of preventing

work done illegally is well within the governments capabilities.

However it requires a concerted effort by many, before the

government responds, and perhaps LJN can now show them

exactly why this is important.

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PRO MemberPermalink Reply by David Cox on May 6, 2012 at 12:12

It happens offline too - Only last week a chap operating a ford focus towing a 4x3 trailer with basic B&Q mower and bentshaft ryobi strimmer crossed the road and very firmly started questioning me on my tools and how much I charged - I told him "as much as I see fit, and as My tools are My tools because I like the look of them" He was clearly struggling with cutting a hedge by hand (was about 12ft tall and 100ft long), Saw him try striming it... what he was really asking was "how do you do this job" and "how do you price it, Im making no money!"

There are alot of people who have the same impression of the industry they want to enter, as the customers we would never take on - that it is cheap and unskilled and easy to do. These people are they ones who last a season at best and are gone. At best we should leave these people for each other, they will never be happy either way - And if LJN helps convert a few of these to profesionals over time then its done its job. If not, more fool them - they loose when they go out of business charging £15ph and their overheads are £11-£12 by the time they factor tool repair and running costs in.

Duncan said:

Here here, if they ever sort it out, if not you've got to just ignore unskilled competition or it would drive you nuts. We should all be too busy being damned good to have any time to worry.

One thing I suspect on here is though (from experience of other forums and even thefts and burglaries occurring because of them) is that these same 'give it a go' folk, whether legitimate or not and whether they post on, or even join this site, are most probably 'watching' and most probably on here nicking all of your info and reiterating it to customers the next day! You do see a fair amount of very, very, basic questions being asked on here from people who are supposedly already in business doing something which they clearly don't understand or have any knowledge of. In that respect, and with the wealth of knowledge being poured out on here, how do you prevent this site from helping cowboys or even your own competition? Nothing wrong with educating people who are genuinely making an effort or are genuinely in need of help but it's the one thing that's confused me since joining here. Isn't it a bit tooo 'open'. What's to stop your next potential customer joining and realising that they can have basic work done for half the price by deliberately seeking out a moron? lol.

John www.acegardenservices.co.uk said:

The gulilty party once again is the government in office,

in these days of hign tech' systems, the ability of preventing

work done illegally is well within the governments capabilities.

However it requires a concerted effort by many, before the

government responds, and perhaps LJN can now show them

exactly why this is important.

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